Ugh.  the problem with having a dungeon with a lot of rooms is that I think I've hit writer's block on creative ways to stock them.

Sure, you've got lavatories, kitchens, dining halls, studies, quarters, and all that that take up a fair amount of rooms, after that?  What?

I'm not a fan of AD&D 1e's rule of dungeon stocking in that you can have a group of guards in one room, a troll in the next room, and a green slime in the other  I.e., the inhabitants have to be able to live together at least a little

Blank space.  Greyhawk and Blackmoor both had a LOT of empty space; there was frequently something in the neighborhood of 50 to 100 feet (straight lines) between encounters.

What kind of complex is it?  Castle?  Temple?  Tomb?  Petrified bowels of a long-dead behemoth?

Quote from: Sacrosanct;733302Ugh.  the problem with having a dungeon with a lot of rooms is that I think I've hit writer's block on creative ways to stock them.

Sure, you've got lavatories, kitchens, dining halls, studies, quarters, and all that that take up a fair amount of rooms, after that?  What?

I'm not a fan of AD&D 1e's rule of dungeon stocking in that you can have a group of guards in one room, a troll in the next room, and a green slime in the other  I.e., the inhabitants have to be able to live together at least a little

The smithy and other workshops.

The larder.

Makeshift temples.

Ossuaries.

Long-spent antimatter reactor core from a spaceship. Worshipped as a god by the goblins who built a makeshift temple around it, complete with ossuary, in a larder. The altarpiece is an anvil lifted from the smithy (room 39).

Laboratory of a mad alchemist turned into a ghoul after research on eternal life went awry.

Library lined with undecipherable Voynich Manuscript-like tomes. Or readable but meaningless Library of Babel-like volumes.

Abstract works of art from an inhuman (pre-human?) civilization which come alive when the stars are right.

Deactivated command central for ancient tech, roll 1d6: 1-2 nuclear missile silo, 3-4 low-orbit ion cannons, 5 weather control machine, 6 planetary turbines originally used to move planet into a Goldilocks zone.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;733302I'm not a fan of AD&D 1e's rule of dungeon stocking in that you can have a group of guards in one room, a troll in the next room, and a green slime in the other . . .

What's the page number for that rule, again?

Quote from: Sacrosanct;733302Ugh.  the problem with having a dungeon with a lot of rooms is that I think I've hit writer's block on creative ways to stock them.

Sure, you've got lavatories, kitchens, dining halls, studies, quarters, and all that that take up a fair amount of rooms, after that?  What?

I'm not a fan of AD&D 1e's rule of dungeon stocking in that you can have a group of guards in one room, a troll in the next room, and a green slime in the other  I.e., the inhabitants have to be able to live together at least a little

Um.... then why have you got so many rooms?

Aren't you starting backwards, draw a map then work out what its for. If you start the other way round. Decide that the complex was build as tomb 1000 years ago then a tribe of kobolds moved in and made it into a burrow before some local human guys occupied it as a rebel base and then expanded part of it to include a prison etc...

This way you draw a map that makes sense, you get layers of history as different parts of the complex have multiple uses over the years which can be observed by the PCs, and all the rooms make sense even the empty ones that used to be a Kobold nursery or a store for prisoners boots.

Don't forget the connective hallways, used for moving through, so one do not need to go through the kitchen to get to the armory, or something similarly inconvenient.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;733352What's the page number for that rule, again?

Well, the rules starting on page 175 if you want to get technical.  But I wasn't being literal.  It was more of an unspoken rule based on most AD&D 1e modules published.

Quote from: jibbajibba;733356Um.... then why have you got so many rooms?

Aren't you starting backwards, draw a map then work out what its for. If you start the other way round. Decide that the complex was build as tomb 1000 years ago then a tribe of kobolds moved in and made it into a burrow before some local human guys occupied it as a rebel base and then expanded part of it to include a prison etc...
.

I think you've missed the part about writer's block.  I've done all that, and haven't started backwards.  I'm more referring to something similar to point 3 on this list of types of writers block.  And I was wondering how other people typically tackle it.  Do you step away for a few days and recharge batteries?  Do you look for sources of inspiration?  Etc.

My PERSONAL answer is that I put some shit in a room.  There is anywhere from 40 to 100 linear feet between encounters.

Of course, I don't follow a lot of current trends in dungeon design; I go for something that will be fun to explore rather than "makes sense."  And when Phil (Prof. MAR) Barker gave me crap about "This dungeon makes no sense, what do the monsters eat?" I put a McDonald's on the sixth level.

Quote from: Old Geezer;733385My PERSONAL answer is that I put some shit in a room.  There is anywhere from 40 to 100 linear feet between encounters.

Of course, I don't follow a lot of current trends in dungeon design; I go for something that will be fun to explore rather than "makes sense."  And when Phil (Prof. MAR) Barker gave me crap about "This dungeon makes no sense, what do the monsters eat?" I put a McDonald's on the sixth level.

Nice

Advice to OP:

- Read Philotomy's musings on the Dungeon as Mythic Underworld. Even if you normally want your dungeons to be mundane (i.e. "make sense"), it would do you good to understand that other types of dungeons are not necessarily "stupid" or "poorly designed"; they're just different, but still have their own internal consistency.

- Take your "making sense" dungeon you're having problems with, and introduce a random incongruous element. In the middle of the sewers... there is a bazaar. In the middle of the sunken temple complex... there is a blacksmith selling his wares. In the middle of the ancient dungeon... there are exactly 1000 housecats. Take the first random thing that comes to mind; you are forbidden to discard it because it "doesn't fit". Forbidden.
Now come up with an explanation that "makes sense" for why that thing is there. That explanation will help you with stocking the rest of the dungeon.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;733384I think you've missed the part about writer's block.  I've done all that, and haven't started backwards.  I'm more referring to something similar to point 3 on this list of types of writers block.  And I was wondering how other people typically tackle it.  Do you step away for a few days and recharge batteries?  Do you look for sources of inspiration?  Etc.

Still a bit confused if you know what the dungeon was build for then when you designed it all the rooms had an original use. You don't cut out rooms underground for fun. So then you layer on the other stuff to come up with your final design so you know who last occupied it so you know what it was last used for and kind of what it looks like.

If you just can't decide its current content then work out who occupies this zone of the dungeon now, maybe home to a tribe of Bugbears or perhaps a nest of giant spiders then write a random table for that population and when the PCs are nearby make a roll - 3 bugbears playing dice, bugbear snatching a quick snooze, bugbear taking a piss in the corner of the room, bugbears arguing about who can smack a cutting block harder with their axes etc etc

Quote from: Premier;733387Advice to OP:

- Read Philotomy's musings on the Dungeon as Mythic Underworld. Even if you normally want your dungeons to be mundane (i.e. "make sense"), it would do you good to understand that other types of dungeons are not necessarily "stupid" or "poorly designed"; they're just different, but still have their own internal consistency.

- Take your "making sense" dungeon you're having problems with, and introduce a random incongruous element. In the middle of the sewers... there is a bazaar. In the middle of the sunken temple complex... there is a blacksmith selling his wares. In the middle of the ancient dungeon... there are exactly 1000 housecats. Take the first random thing that comes to mind; you are forbidden to discard it because it "doesn't fit". Forbidden.
Now come up with an explanation that "makes sense" for why that thing is there. That explanation will help you with stocking the rest of the dungeon.

Oh, there are some odd things there.  Below is a section of the dungeon (only accessible by the secret door, thus it hasn't been worked like the main temple area) that is inhabited by two tribes of goblins.  Basically, these two tribes are the two gangs from West Side Story, only instead of musical numbers, they write graffiti (lyrics) on each others' turf.

Quote from: jibbajibba;733392Still a bit confused if you know what the dungeon was build for then when you designed it all the rooms had an original use. You don't cut out rooms underground for fun. So then you layer on the other stuff to come up with your final design so you know who last occupied it so you know what it was last used for and kind of what it looks like.

If you just can't decide its current content then work out who occupies this zone of the dungeon now, maybe home to a tribe of Bugbears or perhaps a nest of giant spiders then write a random table for that population and when the PCs are nearby make a roll - 3 bugbears playing dice, bugbear snatching a quick snooze, bugbear taking a piss in the corner of the room, bugbears arguing about who can smack a cutting block harder with their axes etc etc

When you've got a dungeon complex with 300 rooms, by the time you get to 150 or so, it gets harder to detail them out.  Especially since the original dungeon was overrun so none of the original purposes are currently used.  When I created the dungeon levels, of course I had key areas in mind and purposes for them.  I'm not sure why you keep assuming that I haven't done any of that.  

And what you're describing is exactly what I'm wanting to avoid.  Anybody can put a random creature in there, but for me, it's important that that creature(s) to have a reasonable reason for being there with all the other creatures that are wandering around.  You can only have so many empty rooms before it really looks like the designer is being lazy.

And I'm not saying that "OMG, I'm totally stuck and half the dungeon is blank!"  I'm saying there are a few rooms here and there I was stuck on to find a creative yet logical inhabitant.  That's all.  I'm sure after my batteries recharge I'll find something that works.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;733405When you've got a dungeon complex with 300 rooms, by the time you get to 150 or so, it gets harder to detail them out.  Especially since the original dungeon was overrun so none of the original purposes are currently used.  When I created the dungeon levels, of course I had key areas in mind and purposes for them.  I'm not sure why you keep assuming that I haven't done any of that.  

And what you're describing is exactly what I'm wanting to avoid.  Anybody can put a random creature in there, but for me, it's important that that creature(s) to have a reasonable reason for being there with all the other creatures that are wandering around.  You can only have so many empty rooms before it really looks like the designer is being lazy.

And I'm not saying that "OMG, I'm totally stuck and half the dungeon is blank!"  I'm saying there are a few rooms here and there I was stuck on to find a creative yet logical inhabitant.  That's all.  I'm sure after my batteries recharge I'll find something that works.

No I had assumed you have thought through why it way there and what lived in that area and so that was why I was confused as to you not knowing what lived in it.

If an area is populated by a tribe then randomising who is in which room when is at least as logical as wandering monsters and probably more logical than ...
 In this room there are 3 orcs playing dice. One of the orcs Grimace has lost most of his gold and is becoming very drunk the others are considering killing him and throwing him down the latrine in room 45 in order to get the key he wears round his neck that opens his personal chest, found in the NE corner of this room. They think the chest contains a Mithril shirt that Grimace took from the body of a fallen Dwarf warrior in fact the shirt was traded to the Incanters who occupy the markets on levels 3 through 4 and the chest contains nothing but some tattered clothes and a bottle of Snak.
Because the party can turn up in this room at any time and to always find the orcs engaged in the same point of the same activity smacks of narritivism to me.  NOTE - I am not accusing you of doing this either merely saying that randomising some room content in line with the occupying force of a dungeon zone is actually a reasonable way of making the place tick.

What I tend to do us to decide what kind of complex it is, then decide what it needs.

So, a tomb would have different rooms to a temple, mine or orc nest.

Also, I make a map first, then fill it, that makes it easier. Fairly often, I hunt through the internet for plans, then number the rooms and put down what the rooms are in a separate document.

Ideas for rooms:
Cells (Prison, Monastery, Temple)
Barracks
Shrine
Antechamber
Workshop
Garderobe
Bedroom
Kitchen
Scullery
Pantry/Larder
Library
Plaza
Exercise Hall
Feasting Hall
Entertainment Hall

As for populating them, that also depends on the complex. A functioning temple, castle, town or mine would have people in the rooms according to their function. So, a barracks might have guards, cells might have initiates or servants and so on. Some might be empty, depending on the time of day.

An abandoned complex, however, can have anything. I'd make a random table showing what creatures are likely to be there. "Likely" can be whatever you want it to be, of course. So, an orc nest might have orcs, goblins, kobolds as the main part, but could also have other creatures who live there. An abandoned Mostali mine might have 2 tables, one for Mostali leftovers (Gremlins,Nilmergs, machines, old machinery, strange steam devices, black powder) and one or more for the new inhabitants, depending on who lives there (Broos, scorpionmen, ogres, walktapi, zombies, skeletons, vampires, mummies, trolls, bandits). So, you could have an abandoned Mostali mine that has been inhabited by different groups of people, vampires in a closed-off area, ogres near one entrace, broos near another, scorpionmen near a third and trolls in caves that the mine intersects.