Mooney,
  It was AoF that suggested that a Supers game with a list of Powers would only have like 20 powers.
  My goal is to design a game with no lists of powers.
  Yeah I played Champions in like 89, so my knowledge is rusty. But I still remember how the powers are bought. I kind of dug it, but the recordkeeping/math required is a barrier to entry for a lot of RP Gamers I think...
  Either way, that's not the kind of game I wan to make.

  As an aside, in DC Heroes Claws is a power that allows you to replaces your Strength with its power level during melee attack. It always does Killing damage. Killing damage is harder to heal, but like in Champions, if you actually kill them, no xps for the entire scenraio (not just the one scene).

Quote from: dindenverWell, in DC Heroes/Blood of heroes, Claws is a Power. It doesn't replace your hands, it just gives you a claw attack that gives you a bonus, but is killing damage. And again, you are right, I can just fudge the game or my character to match the situation, but this is a pretty basic example of the rules getting in the way of creativity. I am not saying its insurmountable or that I can't get over it (we are all stlll planning on playing and I am looking forward to a good game). But I am saying that even on this small little scale, having a list of defined powers can make life harder, not easier just as easily as it can do the opposite.

The game should have a sentence to the effect that you can have a 'cosmetic' version of a power without having to have the actual power. If it doesn't, I'd say that's a flaw in the game.

Anyway, the solution here seems to be seperating the mechanical effect of a power, from the look of it. There will be infinite ways a power can look, but only a few effects. For example Black Canary's sonic scream is different to a magic spell, but they're both "attack anyone within a given range" - the differences would be the range, the damage, and possibly certain special cases: maybe Black Canary's power doesn't work on anyone who's deaf for example.

QuoteYour charisma example is not  bad on a D&D scale for a low level character. But we are talking about Supers. What I want is a super power that can be used with an affect on par with Meteor Swarm? Where the character can literally influence any character with their super good looks, even mortal enemies. Even if you gave a D&D character a 50 Charisma, it doesn't quite do that, or compare to Meteor Swarm, can it?

I'm not sure about Charisma in D&D in particular, but I know that "making people favourably disposed towards you" is one of the basic things that spells and skills do.

Again, the solution seems to be seperating the mechanical effect from the look - so that whether it's beauty or Mandrake's hypnotism can be left up to the player without having to have two 'powers'.

Aquaman's control of sea creatures would be an example of the same power that works very well but can only target very specific creatures.

Quote20 powers... Well, Heroes Unlimited has 208 Powers, Blood of Heroes/DC Heroes has 197 and 5th Edition Heroes System/Champions has 150 pages of Powers (that's not even counting Power Modifiers or other character traits). Even BESM which has done a lot to consolidate Powers and to group similar effects has 77 Powers. I think its fair to say that lists of powers can get out of hand pretty quick. And even when they do, it still does not cover the ultimate possibilities that players can come up with. To bring it back to something you might know better, how many Spells/Feats/Class Abilities are there in D&D 3.5? More than 20, right?

OK, but I bet that the differences are mostly look, and various measures of effectiveness. This kind of blasting ray has more range, this one's harder to dodge, this one only works on living things, this one doesn't damage the targets it just slows them down like Spiderman's webs...

Going back to that list I posted before, and looking at it from the point of view of superheros:

Athletics - obviously very relevant to superheroes: you could have powers for dodging, endurance, flying, being able to survive in various hostile environments (eg being able to breathe underwater).

Persuading - discussed above.

Communication & Protocol - this isn't hugely relevant to superheroes, but you could have something that measures the police's relationship to you.

Detection - One of Batman's main abilities. Maybe it works on "degree of success = how many pieces of information the GM gives you". Variants could be whether it 'costs' anything to use (like a magic spell), and whether it's a power or you have to be able to access something that does it for you (like the Bat-Computer, or a clever assistant).

Driving, Riding & Piloting - Flying is obviously very relevant to superheroes, as are 'special' vehicles like the Batmobile.

So far none of these elements look like they have to have huge lists.

By the way, here's an example of a superhero game that has 30 powers (as well as characteristics and a few skills) - I've never played it so I don't know if it works, but it might be a good source of ideas anyway:

http://basicrps.narod.ru/index-wow.html

Quote from: dindenver5) Reward player effort in creating interesting characters that have mechanical weight.

I don't know if this is generally true, but personally I really like coming up with a character concept and finding that it can be done with the rules -

"bards in D&D aren't anything like I think bards should be" :mad:

"wait - I can have a fighter/thief with high Charisma and a Perform skill"

So for me a system which works in that sense is automatically rewarding - I don't need a mechanical reward.

AoF,
  I appreciate you trying to help.
  BUT, my design goal is come up with a character generation for a supers game that has not list of powers, skills or abilities.
  So, this back and forth arguing really accomplishes nothing. I agree that it can be done and off the top of my head I can think of some compelling reasons to do it that way. But none of them are compatible with my design goals.
  I have made other games and almost every one of them has extensive lists to define character capabilities and the game setting.
  But this game is not about restricting player creativity. Even if it means the setting is a little less defined.
  Also, I personally, would not want to play a game with only 20 defined powers. Even if the "powers" were just effects (like "does damage"). No offense, that's just my preference. I usually play DC Heroes/Blood of Heroes and the mix of powers/weaknesses etc work for me for most characters I want to make. But its a point buy system, so there is a lot of math record keeping, you know? And I heralded it as the best compromise in the genre. I mean I couldn't think of any way to do it better. Like I said, Hero System has 150 pages of powers. Heroes unlimited and M&M is d20 based, I like d20, but not for supers. and BESM is hard-wired for Anime.
  Then I came up with this idea. I want to explore it instead of just doing something I know. You know?

AoF,

QuoteI really like coming up with a character concept and finding that it can be done with the rules -

"bards in D&D aren't anything like I think bards should be"

"wait - I can have a fighter/thief with high Charisma and a Perform skill"

So for me a system which works in that sense is automatically rewarding - I don't need a mechanical reward.

  Well, that is a mechanical reward isn't it? You used your creativity to make the character you wanted. And the game rewarded you by giving you bonuses to accomplish the in game tasks you wanted to be able to perform.

In that case, my advice is to have a look at Risus, Fudge, and The Window:

www222.pair.com/sjohn/risus.htm

//www.fudgerpg.com/fudge.html (and maybe http://www.fudgerpg.info/guide/bin/view/Guide/FudgeSupers)

//www.mimgames.com/window

Quote from: dindenverAoF,
  I appreciate you trying to help.
  BUT, my design goal is come up with a character generation for a supers game that has not list of powers, skills or abilities.
  So, this back and forth arguing really accomplishes nothing. I agree that it can be done and off the top of my head I can think of some compelling reasons to do it that way. But none of them are compatible with my design goals.
  I have made other games and almost every one of them has extensive lists to define character capabilities and the game setting.
  But this game is not about restricting player creativity. Even if it means the setting is a little less defined.
  Also, I personally, would not want to play a game with only 20 defined powers. Even if the "powers" were just effects (like "does damage"). No offense, that's just my preference. I usually play DC Heroes/Blood of Heroes and the mix of powers/weaknesses etc work for me for most characters I want to make. But its a point buy system, so there is a lot of math record keeping, you know? And I heralded it as the best compromise in the genre. I mean I couldn't think of any way to do it better. Like I said, Hero System has 150 pages of powers. Heroes unlimited and M&M is d20 based, I like d20, but not for supers. and BESM is hard-wired for Anime.
  Then I came up with this idea. I want to explore it instead of just doing something I know. You know?

Quote from: Age of Fableit so I don't know if it works, but it might be a good source of ideas anyway:
http://basicrps.narod.ru/index-wow.html

Been there, done that. It works okay. There are a lot of things you can't do in it.  When Superworld was released as a seperate game, not part of Worlds of Wonder, it ended up having 50 some odd powers (if memory serves).  

Also remember that many of these powers are broken down into sub components.  So Size Control in Superworld is the same as Shrink and Growth in Champions.  

So you can write down a single power as Body Control
Which has 14 different mechanics you want to choose from, growth, shrink, stretch, shapeshift, density increase, density decrease, extra limbs, etc, etc.  Does that count as one power or 14?

AoF and MH,
  I am really using ditv, hq and my own personal preferences as a starting point/inspiration. These are games where you can pick any trait and assign it a value and the game give that a real mechanical value.
  I want to capture that style of chargen, but give the game mechanics more weight/substance. For instance, I have browsed the Window and the Pool a couple of times, but I don't think I could ever force myself to play them. There is no structure and no guidance about how the game should go/be. So, the game is about whatever the players bring to the table, which is alright unless people bring incompatible stuff...

  So, the real questions are:
 - Can you guys think of a super hero you would want to play that this system cannot accommodate?
 - Can you think of a character you can make with this system that breaks the game?
 - And Do you feel like this character generation system (though fairly simple) nudges you to make heroic/superheroic characters?

This questions would be easier to answer if we actually had more of the system to see. So we will work with the theoretical.

- Can you guys think of a super hero you would want to play that this system cannot accommodate?
Probably. If not, I can make a character that the system will not conviently be playable (for the GM), that is still in the super hero genre. (Oh we don't have power drain rules? Well I want to run "The Sponge, the power absorbing character.")

- Can you think of a character you can make with this system that breaks the game?

Yes. Casually. If you have ever played a random power gen supers game, you will see that there are many combinations of "just powers" that become "blow outs". The reason why point buy systems tend to be more playable is that they costs equalize out - it is a built in play balance. So when you are converting that V&V blow out character to a point buy system and discover it is 350 points (champions or gurps points) more than most other characters, it should run up a red flag.  

If you have ever played with a blow out character, you know it is not fun. Sure it was legal. But you are playing electro bolt guy and matter eater lad next to UBER MAN. It makes for difficult play balance for the GM (Oh, Stretchy guy has just been crippled because he accidently got in the way of one of the Killbots designed to keep Uberman busy) and often bad feelings for the players, "We stay and drink lattes, Uberman will take out the monster we can't defeat".

So if I can take any appropriate traits without restriction, assign the values -like HQ- the character will only be balanced by the GM's repeating the mantra (Yes it is a perfectly legal character, but it is not allowed in my game).  As well all know, the GM needs the rules guidelines to help them have some degree of balance in the game.  If not, the group of players can create a force that will be difficult to challange in the game or if someone goes for concept over power... then we will have  a "left behind" character.

- And Do you feel like this character generation system (though fairly simple) nudges you to make heroic/superheroic characters?

No.  

There is nothing in that system that makes me think "supers" or even anything specifically heroic.  It just makes characters.

 have seen similar system for fantasy and others (Storyboard does come to mind).  A simple character gen system does not promote a supers genre game.  (Though it does not prevent it either, it certain guidelines or concepts are in place).

As GURPS has shown us, just having a powers mechanic does not make a supers game.  (It does make for a super powered game).

Now many of the Indie supers games that are more simulationist have genre based mechanics.  They push you to act heroic because unless you do, you don't have the points/ dice/ karma to succeed in the super arena.

So unless there is something else that will exist, but has not been brought up... No.

MH,
  I listed the mechanics here:
http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=10773

  Power drain rules would be fairly easy to replicate using Effects.

  Regarding a game breaker, can you give me a specific example? I am not seeing it, that is why I am asking for assistance.

  Can you review the mechanics post and then come back to me about the Heroics question? I feel like they work in tandem (Chargen and mechanics) to create the "Super" feel I am going for. If your answer is still no, can you point out where it fails? Again, I am not seeing it.

You have yet to redefine the systems, though you did add some nice modifiers.

You also never acknowledged in the thread that you are going with Abstract Power sets.  So in your case there is only:
Powers   And a weakness to this is that Cosmic Power manipulation is on equal footing with the ability to eat any material

Abilities  Assuming non super powers, Perks, and such

Marks not well defined

Traits

The resolution is by scene still.

We still have the mechanic and game issues of ...

The Scale/ Usefulness of a given power - Some Powers are great, some are not so great. Yet they all add +100 points.  To use a Brave New World Exampled, What if one is a Delta (Tiny Powers) and one is an Alpha (Big Powers). Both can be Bruisers, but one can lift a building, while the other a car. One can shrug off artillery rounds while the other can shrug small arms fire.    

Several Supers Involved   So the Justice League wins automatically beause there are 8 of them and they all have several powers, so they have a 2400 (minimum) point bonus, plus other modifiers.  So unless you have 24 super powers, you can not win.   "Ho Hum, we resolve bank robbery with our four characters with 1200 points. He can only have six powers and can's muster a 600 points on his 1d6 die roll.  

Several Characters Involved.  See above, smaller scale

The fact than any superhuman with powers wins every conflict by subtly or not subtly using their powers.   "I pick up the girl at the bar using my fire powers, even though she has previously shot me down  100+1d4  vs 1d4+6

How to interrupt and perform a sub action that can either bring a neutralizing disad into play OR have your own subgoal (rescue the innocents, even though he might blow up the city).

As for making this a super heroic game. You have mechanics. As GURPS has taught us, just having super powers in a game does not make it super heroic (See the GURPs base supers background and wildcards).

There is no mechanic or anything else in place that makes this anything like superheroes. Marvel Super Hero had Karma. Champions has Disadvantages and tacit agreements. Other games have their guidelines as well. What do you have?  

As a pointed example:  I could use the term Wizardry in place of Power and make this a fantasy game.   Wizard vs Dragon  100+1d4 vs 100+1d4

What makes this a super hero game besides the existance of powers?

MH,
  OK, I'll try and hit these point by point:
1) You are right. I need to come back and do a better/more thorough write up of some of this stuff. And this back and forth is helping with how/what I need to define, thanks

2) Well, there are Abilities, Powers and Super Powers and each is on a scale of its own. Abilities are Human possible. Powers are impossible for humans to do (like hurling a tank) and super powers are world-shattering powers (hurl a mountain). Plus the Arena tags help differentiate powers that are of a limited use, versus powers that are applicable to almost any situation. For instance, Cyclops' Eye Lasers, are amazing, but they really only help with some physical challenges (fighting and physical barriers) and not much else, so it would get the Power and Physical Tags. While Green Lantern's Power Ring seems to be able to do anything in any situation, so it might get Super, Power, Physical, Mental and Social Tags to show how mighty it was. Does that make sense?

3) Someone did point out the scaling issue of the previouos numbers, I made a 3-tab spreadsheet, worked out the possible combinations (one normal human vs one 10 supers and everything in between) and cvame up with costs that I think encourages team work, but doesn't wtreck the game. And in reality, it takes a team of super villains to stop the Justice League when they are all working on the same mission, no?

4) Super man and a girl in a bar. Yeah, that is intentional. I don't care if people want to use their super powers to pick up chicks. If they do it will be trivially easy. Unless someone with a Super Power is competing against them, right?

  Dang, I gotta go. I'll see if I missed any points when I get home,. but these are the big ones I think.

  Back.

  OK, there is a limit/strategy surrounding Super Powers. The Arena limits when/where you can use it. So, for instance, the only power that the sample Uber Man character would not be able to use his Super Strength during a Mental or Social Challenge. He can use his X-Ray vision in a Mental Challenge, but only if he can narrate it into the scene.

  As to the Scene-based mechanics, it isn't really (I think some people might use it that way though). It is Challenge-based. A Challenge can be as small as Can Batman get past the Mooks into the next room (does he use stealth or fists or intimidation?) or Can Rex Ruthless mind control the world with his Contro-Ray? It's up to the GM to call for a roll often when he is not concerned about the players radically changing the game world or less often if he wants to have a relatively static game world.

  I was thinking about adding a Drama (need a better name for it, or at least one that isn't as loaded) Mechanic that lets a player double one trait or re-roll the die. What do you think?

Okay. You need to stat out a bigger chunk of this. You have a lot of implied mechanics and less than defined ideas in process. It is making the conversation and discussion ... more difficult.

The challange system, as it is, I find clunky. Even if it is not scene resolution, but challange resolution (again a change from what had been said before), I don't like the wide random scaling change. The Random Delta is just too high in some circumstances and too low in in others.

So define some things more carefully and clearly, then we can continue.

OK,
  Its clear in my mind, and I have a handful of posts defining most of these terms, but I'll make another go at centralizing it to one post:
Trait: Trait is anything on the character sheet. Some have no effect, some give bonuses and some give penalties. The Tags of a Trait determine when they can be used and what the do for your character (bonus, penalty, etc)

Tag: Tags modify a Trait. With out any Tags, a Trait has no mechanical weight and is there to define your character in a non-mechanical way (personality, looks, something like that).

Arena Tag: This Tag, when applied to a Trait, restricts the kinds of Challenges that the Trait can be used in. There are three Arena Tags: Physical, Mental, Social.

Physical Challenge: Any time the character's physical abilities (muscles, speed, endurance) are tested. Even a Mind Blast is a Physical Challenge, if it causes physical pain and not brain damage or mental coercion.

Mental Challenge: When the Challenge can only be overcome by what your character knows, sees or learns, it is a mental challenge. Resisting Telepathy or Possession is a Mental Challenge, so is diffusing a bomb or solving a riddle.

Social Challenge: Any time your character tries to influence another or another character tries to influence your character, this is a Social Challenge. This includes Persuasion, Haggling, Debate, Intimidation or Seduction as well as any other time characters are trying to change the world with words.

Super Tag: This tag, when added to a Trait means that that Trait can apply to almost any Challenge that the Trait has Arena tags for. For instance, a character with a Super Speed Trait that has the Super Tag, the Power Tag and Physical Arena Tag can use it to fight, run a foot race, even move heavy objects (he's that fast), but he couldn't use it to disarm a bomb any faster as that is a Mental Challenge. If the player wanted, they could add the Mental Arena Tag to their Super Speed during chargen or at a later time.

Power Tag: This tag represents a Trait that is above and beyond human abilities. Powers are always positive for the character. They require an Arena tag as well. Powers are differentiated from super powers by one major criteria: applicability. What this means is, within the Arena the Power has Tags for, it still does not apply to every Challenge. As an example, an Invisibility power that is supposed to make you invisible to all senses and sensors is a Super Power, it is applicable to all Challenges in its Arenas.  While a more mundane Invisibility that only made you invisible, but didn't mask your scent or infrared emissions would be a Power because there are many ways to make this Power void (e.g., Bring a dog or snake). And they are also limited by their Arena.

Ability: A Trait with the Ability Tag. These represent Abilities that a character has that are possible by humans. This includes incredible strength for instance. Enough Strength to win a weightlifting competition or Strong man competition. But not enough to hurl a car. These can be anything, an innate ability (e.g., Strong), a Skill (e.g., Archery) or even a positive aspect of your character (e.g., Friendly). Abilities do not get an Arena Tag and are applicable to any situation that a Player can narrate them into.

Standard Trait: This is the name given to Traits that have no Tags. They have no mechanical value, but might define how your character acts or is treated (e.g., Short)

Mark: This is a trait that represents an element of human frailty that is strong in your character. These are normal weaknesses that many people suffer from (e.g., Clumsy, Greedy or Emo). These can apply to any situation they can be narrated into and do not get Arena Tags as they can apply to almost any situation.

Weakness: These are Super human fallibilities. Like Powers, they get an Arena Tag. Also, like Powers, they may not apply to every situation involving that Arena. A great example might be Superman's vulnerability to Kryptonite. While it is extremely debilitating to him, it is rare that it comes into play.

Super Weaknesses: This is the polar opposite to Super Powers. They also get a Super Tag, but they also get the Weakness Tag and Arena Tag(s). this is a Weakness or vulnerability that when the character faces a Challenge in that Arena, it is almost impossible to overcome without the use of Super Powers. Samuel L Jackson's Character from Unbreakable is a perfect example. He would have Brittle Bones (Super, Weakness, Physical) and his chance of winning a Physical Challenge would be nearly impossible. It is suggested that Players do not take this unless they are willing to accept the consequences.

Challenge: Any time two Players want different outcomes from a given action. This can be as small as I pick his pocket to as huge as I destroy the world.

Scope: Every Challenge has a Scope. This represents the people that should theoretically be affected by the opposed action. A Mind control ray that broadcasts over the TV and Radio would be a Global Scope, while a woman falling from a tall building would be the Scope of one woman, plus anyone below her if she should hit the ground maybe. It does not reflect how big the Challenge is, just the potential people affected. A Meteor that would destroy the world and Madonna would have the same Scope (Global).

Scene: One or more related Challenges

Narrate: A Player describing how his character is acting/reacting to the situation as it develops.

Effect Points: The result of a Challenge. both sides of a challenge may end up with Effect Points with which to change the game world in some small or large way.

Effect: The actual result of a Challenge. Effects should represent characters damaged, influenced or changed in a fundamental way by the characters involved in the challenge.

  I think this is all of them. Let me know if I missed one.