Quote from: The Traveller;592072Generally systems are tested by corner cases, so a big strong guy against a few weedy guys, a six-way combat between variant forces (some flying, some unable to hit the ones flying while they are in the air, some with pikes, some very fast moving, variant terrain), that sort of thing.

So, Traveller requested I demonstrate how the Destiny Initiative system (details at link) works in a couple of different scenarios. (Above.)

This requires some elaboration on combat mechanics.

Destiny is a very traditional system. Players have Attributes (Dexterity, Strength, Endurance, Intellect, Influence, Spirit) which give a modifier to Skills. They also have Skill "plusses", which represent their level of training. The Attribute modifier is added to the skill plus to get a Total Skill.

Example: An Attribute of 8 (human average) gives a modifier of +2. A novice has +1 skill, which gives a Total Skill of 3. (2 +1)

When you make a Skill Challenge, you roll the dice (using the 2d10 Dice method, detailed at the link) to get a Bonus (ranging from -9 to 0 to +9). Add the Bonus to the Skill, to get a Challenge Total.

Again, very traditional.

In combat, characters have combat skills (firearms, melee weapons, thrown weapons), weapons (a gun, fists, a sword), and armor (shields, kevlar vest, hides).

The rolled bonus is added to the attack skill, which is compared to the defense skill to determine a hit. 1 result is all that's needed to hit (ties go to defenders).

The same rolled bonus is added to the Damage of the weapon, which is compared to a character's Toughness (Endurance + armor). Each result is 1 wound.

Wounds: All characters have the following wound capacity:
1-10: Hurt, but still combat-capable.
11-15: Hors de combat. (Unconscious, etc.)
16-20: Down and bleeding to death (1 wound a round.)
21+: Dead.

In combat, I use Skill Based Combat (info at link). Basically, the more skilled you are, the more damage you do on offense and the less damage you take on defense.

Here's how a single round of attacks would go, when both combatants are using melee weapons:

Character 1: Beginner Swordsman.
Strength 11, modifier +3
   melee weapons, +5. Total Skill: 8
Dexterity 8
Endurance 8

Equipment:
Sword, +3 damage. STR 11 +5 (Skill) +3 (weapon) = Base Damage 19.
Armor, +3 protection. END 8 +5 (Skill) +3 (armor) = Toughness 16.

Character 2: Veteran Swordsman
Strength 10, modifier +2
   melee weapons, +8. Total Skill: 10
Dexterity 9
Endurance 8

Equipment:
Sword, +3 damage. Str 10 +8 (skill) +3 (weapon) = Base Damage: 21.
Armor, +3 protection. End 8 +8 (skill) +3 (armor) = Toughness 19.

To attack, you make a melee weapons challenge. With the first attack, it's the Veteran against the Beginner.

The Veteran rolls 2d10. The bonus is -2. His Challenge Total is thus 8 (Total Skill 10 -2). Since the Beginner's skill is 8, the Veteran misses. (Ties go to defender.)

The Beginner rolls 2d10, and gets a bonus of +3. His Challenge total is 11 (Total Skill 8 +3). Since the Veteran's skill is 10, the Beginner hits.

His Base Damage with a sword is 19, +3 for his Bonus, Damage Total of 22. This is compared to the Veteran's Endurance of 19 (against melee weapons), for a Result of 3.

The Veteran takes 3 Wounds, out of a possible of 10 (to keep fighting). He's hurt, but still in the fight.

That's how combat goes. A lot of this needs to be playtested, obviously, but it's very traditional and very straightforward.

I'll start with the fight-clubbing next post.

Quote from: The Traveller;592072a big strong guy against a few weedy guys

Ben the Brawler, bending his elbow at a bar, has been bragging about his brawling skills and how badly he could beat the other bozos on the barstools. Marty McSkinny and his three skinny pals, the bozos in question, get tired of the blowhard and after trading a few rounds of insults, jump Ben.

Marty and his 3 Pals
Strength 8, modifier +2
   melee weapons, +4. Total Skill: 6
Dexterity 10, modifier +2
   unarmed combat (Martial Arts), +4. Total Skill: 6
Endurance 8

Equipment:
Bar stools, +2 damage. STR 8 +4 (Skill) +2 (weapon) = Base Damage 14.
Armor (thin leather jacket), +1 protection. END 8 +4 (Skill) +1 (armor) = Toughness 13.

Ben the Brawler
Strength 12, modifier +3
   brawling, +7. Total Skill: 10
Dexterity 9
Endurance 11

Equipment:
Fists, +0 damage. Str 12 +7 (skill) +0 (weapon) = Base Damage: 19.
Armor (none), +0 protection. End 11 +7 (skill) +0 (armor) = Toughness 18.

Straight up comparison: Ben is skilled, but at 4-to-1 odds, this is likely to be a tough fight.

Note: The fight will be run using the mechanics above. I'll just summarize the combat results. I'm using "live" rolls, that is, what I roll at my desk will determine how the fight goes.

Also, the color commentary ("knocked out by a haymaker") is the usual kind of GM narrative interpretation of the game mechanics. There are no random Crit tables or such to roll against.

Round 1: Nobody has Initiative. Everybody acts in descending order of Dexterity.
The 4 pals go first.
Marty: Misses.
1: Misses, drops stool. (Rolled double 1's and Doubles are Trouble.)
2: Misses.
3: Misses.
Ben: Attacks the guy without the stool, deals 5 wounds.
   Because Ben scored a significant victory, he seizes Initiative. Next round, he can choose to go 1st or 2nd.

Round 2: Ben goes first.
Ben: Attacks the same wounded, unarmed guy. Deals 4 wounds of damage.
   He has Pressed the Attack, so would normally gain a +1 Advantage bonus next round. But...
Marty: Tries a volley attack, where all 4 coordinate their attacks. Challenge Total 12 (including +2 for pals aiding). Hits, deals 2 wounds to Ben.
   Marty has scored a significant victory, so Ben won't get a bonus. Ben still has Initiative, though.
1 (9 wnd): Challenge total 6, coordinates. Grants Marty a +1 to attack and damage.
2: Skill total -1, can't coordinate.
3: Challenge total 4, coordinates. Also grants Marty a +1 to attack and damage.

Round 3: Ben chooses to go first.
Ben (2 wnd): Deals 5 wounds to #1. Total 14 wounds, he is down.
   Ben has Pressed the Attack, so gains a +1 Advantage bonus next round.
Marty: Another volley attack. One on one, they are toast. Skill 3, so coordinates. (Gives a +1 to highest value.)
1: Knocked out by a haymaker, collapses to the floor.
2: Skill 7, coordinates.
3: Skill 7, +2 from his friends, total 9. Misses.

Round 4: Ben has Initiative, and a +1 bonus. This fight is going to be over quickly, he thinks.
Ben (2 wnd): Attacks Marty. Misses.
Marty: Volleying again. Skill 4. Coordinates.
2: Skill 14. Highest, gets the bonus for any aid. +2, total 16. Hits. 24 damage. Ben takes 6 wounds (total .
   Because # 2 scored a significant victory, he has Seized the Initiative.
3: Skill 10. Coordinates.

Round 5: The Pals have Initiative, but no bonus. They choose to go first.
Marty: Volleying again. Skill 10, +1. Total 11, barely hits. Ben takes 1 wound.
2: Skill 4. Coordinates.
3: Double 8's. Doubles are trouble, so the GM rules he has tripped over his unconscious friend, and will be out of the next round.
Ben (9 wnd): Attacks Marty. Hits, does 11 wounds. Marty goes down.
   Ben has scored a significant victory (disabling the leader) and Seizes the Initiative.

Round 6: Ben has Initiative, and chooses to go first. (#3 is on the floor.)
Ben (9 wnd): Punches #2, still on his feet. Does 3 wounds.
   Ben has Pressed the Attack, so gains a +1 Advantage bonus next round.
2 (3 wnd): Misses.
3: Stands up, glowering at Ben.

Round 7: Ben has Initiative, with a +1 bonus, and chooses to go first.
Ben (9 wnd): Punches #2. Hits, 13 wounds.
   Ben has Pressed the Attack, so gains a +2 Advantage bonus next round.
2 (16 wnd): Hits the floor choking, as Ben has smashed his esophagus. Down and bleeding to death.
3: Runs behind bar, grabs barkeep's shotgun.

Round 8: Ben has Initiative, with a +2 bonus, and chooses to go first.
Ben (9 wnd): Chases after #3. Hits, deals 14 wounds.
3 (14 wnd): Drops like a sack of potatoes. The shotgun clatters to the floor.

After action report:

Ben won, but was 1 wound away from unconsciousness. Three of his opponents are unconscious, and one is dead. Had the diced bounced differently, Ben could easily have lost.

Also, a slew of charges are in everybody's future, including Assault and Battery and (depending the DA's mood) Involuntary Manslaughter. As Ben was acting in self-defense, he has a pretty good defense.

Yes, that's much clearer now. What it does is tie otherwise dissociated rounds together into a stream of combat. When compared to the standard round-by-round tactical reset, it's a huge improvement.

So initiative or tactical advantage really is decided more or less by who rolls highest? Since that's decided by group, can it be gamed if you have one group member with a particular skill they regularly roll high on, dragging along large numbers of mooks and giving them bonuses just by being in the same group?

Also I note in every round the one with initiative chooses to go first. Is there any advantage to not going first?

Quote from: The Traveller;593628Yes, that's much clearer now. What it does is tie otherwise dissociated rounds together into a stream of combat.

Exact. What you do matters, and not just because you voided an enemy file. (And that doesn't even get into Morale and other effects of the Advantage.)

Quote from: The Traveller;593628When compared to the standard round-by-round tactical reset, it's a huge improvement.

Thank you.

Quote from: The Traveller;593628So initiative or tactical advantage really is decided more or less by who rolls highest?

Indirectly. It's decided by who Presses their Advantage (if they have the Initiative) and who Seizes the Initiative (if they don't have the advantage.)

Rolling high means you did well; doing well is how you Press Your Advantage or Seize the Initiative.

The rule as written are:

Pressing the Attack requires one successful attack — combat, spell, miracle, or NCI — that scores a Superior Success (11+ Result Points) against any opponent or any level of success against a significant opponent (leader, named character, influential or important character, or Hero character).

Seizing the Initiative requires successful attacks — combat, spell, miracle, or NCI — against a majority of the opponents in the same round, or any attack that scores a Superior Success (11+ Result Points) against a significant opponent (leader, named character, influential or important character, or Hero character).

("Hero" characters are what Torg would call Possibility-Rated and Savage Worlds would call "Wildcards".)

Basically, Pressing requires hurting/affecting a lesser character badly, or just hurting/affecting a significant character. Seizing the Initiative requires hurting/affecting a majority of the opposition (leaders and regular guys) or severely hurting/affecting one main character.

Example: In Raiders of the Lost Ark, in the scene in the canon with the rocket launcher, there was Belloc (a Hero character), the Nazi with the burned hand, the officer, and the soldiers. The soldiers are regular guys, the other 3 significant characters.

Note: Affecting them doesn't mean killing them. A Trick attempt, that fools a majority of the opposition, pulling them away from your position, can work as well.

Quote from: The Traveller;593628Since that's decided by group, can it be gamed if you have one group member with a particular skill they regularly roll high on, dragging along large numbers of mooks and giving them bonuses just by being in the same group?

Oh, hells yes. Saruman and the orcs can gang up on a bunch of humans, with Saruman throwing spells to keep the humans off-guard, pinned down, and succumbing to panic, while the orks whittle down their numbers, meaning Saruman's side gets the Initiative and keeps it.

This is such a cinematic trope, it'd be a crime against action-movies to eliminate it.

But it also works for the "team of experts" (like The Expendables or Saving Private Ryan). The demo guy does the demo stuff, but the others can help, the regular guys launch covering fire while the sniper hits the machinegun team behind the sandbags, and so forth.

Teamwork is deliberately made easy and effective to encourage people to attempt the kind of gambits seen in the best action movies.

Quote from: The Traveller;593628Also I note in every round the one with initiative chooses to go first. Is there any advantage to not going first?

There certainly can be. Waiting for your enemies to enter the clearing, before springing the ambush. Allowing the enemy sentinel to charge, to get him out of position so the rest of the party can sneak past. Whatever.

There aren't any rules that give it a specific advantage, it's all down to the tactical situation and what the Players/GM decide is in their best interest.

Simple rules that allow for innumerable situations, limited only by the Players' imaginations. That's the goal.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;593694Oh, hells yes. Saruman and the orcs can gang up on a bunch of humans, with Saruman throwing spells to keep the humans off-guard, pinned down, and succumbing to panic, while the orks whittle down their numbers, meaning Saruman's side gets the Initiative and keeps it.

This is such a cinematic trope, it'd be a crime against action-movies to eliminate it.

But it also works for the "team of experts" (like The Expendables or Saving Private Ryan). The demo guy does the demo stuff, but the others can help, the regular guys launch covering fire while the sniper hits the machinegun team behind the sandbags, and so forth.

Teamwork is deliberately made easy and effective to encourage people to attempt the kind of gambits seen in the best action movies.

Okay well lets talk grey areas here - what if you have say a group of knights, expert in weapons and martial maneuvers, against a much larger force of orcs, competent bully boys but ordinarily wheat before the blade.

So I want to game your system - can I have one super orc in the back with one single super skill, not directly putting himself at risk, but continually building up a round by round advantage until all of the orcs are way more powerful than the knights? Can I build up the same mega advantage with a weaker group and point it at a stronger group in a combat involving more than two parties?

Quote from: The Traveller;593730Okay well lets talk grey areas here - what if you have say a group of knights, expert in weapons and martial maneuvers, against a much larger force of orcs, competent bully boys but ordinarily wheat before the blade.

So I want to game your system - can I have one super orc in the back with one single super skill, not directly putting himself at risk, but continually building up a round by round advantage

So, let's clarify: The 12 orcs have no officers, no significant characters other than a Hero Warchief. His contribution is to bellow out intimidating threats, and the GM has specifically given him a high intimidation (a Combat Interaction skill).

The Knights are a group of 4 roughly equal PC's (all Heros), vastly outnumbered by the orcs. Good in hand to hand combat, with better weapons and armor, but with no significant CI skills and no ranged weapons. More, they're in an open courtyard, with no terrain to take advantage of.

Off the bat, the PC's are in a tight spot, ill-prepared for the combat. At 3-to-1 odds, they will face a tough fight. The probability is that they will perish, but it isn't a certainty. They have Hero Points, Action Cards, and (hopefully) some measure of ingenuity.

Their best option is to look for something unexpected, to try and turn the tables on the orcs. Barrels of oil, stacked on the walls of the keep. A thin staircase, where they only need to fight two or three orcs at a time. A grate on the ground, possibly providing access to the sewers, to escape. Contriving a way to run, so they can come back better prepared.

The Orc Warchief, to augment his troops, will need to Seize the Initiative and continue to Press his Advantage (using the rules above). In order to Press, he can use his intimidation. A significant success (11+ result) against any knight will allow him to Press.

But the Knights can counter it, as in Round 2, above. Ben Pressed, but those without Initiative Countered. If you lack Initiative, you can Counter the Press by scoring an 11+ result (attack, taunt, intimidate, etc.) against either the character who Pressed or a significant character. The leader gains no advantage next round (but doesn't lose advantage either).

The Knights also can try and taunt the Warchief. If they can make a group taunt check, including spending Hero Points and Action Cards, and get lucky enough to score an 11+ result, they Seize the Initiative.

More, they may enrage the Warchief, causing him to charge into melee range.

"We didn't know the Warchief of Clan Toothgnash was a cringing, cowardly mongrel who hides behind inferiors!"

They could also try and trick him into thinking the PC's have bribed some of the orcs to turn against him, causing a split in the ranks. Orcs are not notorious intellectuals.

Basically, target his weak points. Even if you can't Seize the Initiative, you can Counter his Pressing.

CI skills ensure that nearly every character has some kind of exploitable weakness.

Attribute - CI Skill
Strength - overbear
Dexterity - maneuver
Intellect - trick
Influence - taunt
Spirit - intimidate

CI skills count for Seizing, Pressing, and Countering. Cultivate them.

Quote from: The Traveller;593730Can I build up the same mega advantage with a weaker group and point it at a stronger group in a combat involving more than two parties?

If the stronger group is so stupid as to allow it, sure. But, as with the above, it isn't a gimme.

If I were them, I'd let the little guys get eaten up, all the while either heading for the hills, striving for a better tactical situation (in terrain or whatever), preparing some plan to Seize the Initiative, or trying to Counter the stronger group's Presses. All of these ensure that, when the weaker group is gone, you are in the best possible situation.

There's a lot of opportunities, and it is up to players to use their ingenuity.

I wouldn't call that vastly outnumbered in fairness, after round one where I'd imagine the knights will all kill one orc each, they will only be facing two orcs apiece. Twenty four orcs would be more like it, The knights will be facing at least five orcs each after they kill one - still doable, but you'll need to get limbered up first. Fully armoured knights of course.

So if the orc chieftain maintains his successful skill rolls, even as the orcs are cut down, the remaining members will effectively grow ever more powerful; could the orcs then become martially equivalent to the knights when say the odds are reduced to 2:1, gaining the upper hand even though the knights have just milled through most of their number and they haven't killed any knights?

Keep in mind that in this particular case I'm not interested in fancy footwork, I just want to jack up the bonuses as much as possible and see if I can break the system.

Quote from: The Traveller;593766Keep in mind that in this particular case I'm not interested in fancy footwork, I just want to jack up the bonuses as much as possible and see if I can break the system.

Let's be more specific: the question you're asking is "Is it possible for the Knights to be 'winning' because they're chopping through the orcs, even though they never gained the Initiative?"

Yes, it is possible (in certain situations). And it's not even a drawback.

This situation is perfectly "action movie"-esque. 4 soldiers, standing their ground, back to back, as waves of baddies engulf them and all they can do is withstand the tide of the enemy. The enemy dies, but keeps coming on. And behind their foes, the mad evil villain yells threats and imprecations, trying to intimidate the brave heroes. And the heroes get more and more tired, and the situation gets more and more desperate...

It’s a Zergling Rush, the combat in the control room in Aliens, defending the castle in Ironclad, fighting the Red Court Vampires on the steps of the pyramid (in Changes, a Dresden Files novel). In fact, this is the Battle of Helm's Deep (from The Two Towers movie), in miniature.

So this can happen, but some of the Knights will likely die. (Which is why we have Hero Points and Action Cards.) Here’s why:

In order to Press, the Orc Warchief has to score an 11+ intimidation against a Knight each round. Each 5 points (round down) of Result on a CI check gives the targeted character a -1 to all actions next round. So, an 11+ intimidation gives one Knight a -3 penalty to all actions, including Defense. He’s rattled.

Let’s stage this out.

Round 1: 4 orc mooks die. The Warchief intimidates one of the Knights. The surviving orcs gang up 3-on-1 on each knight. (Assuming all roll at least a +0 on their melee combat, this gives the orc team a +2 on Attack.) We assume no Knights die.

Round 2: Orcs Advantage, +1. Orcs go first. They all have +1, and at 3-on-1 probably a +2 to hit. And at one knight has a -3 to Attack and Defense. That’s an (effective) -6 for that single Knight, a big penalty.

And that (effective) penalty increases by 1 point each round. Round 3, -7. Round 4, -8.

Sooner or later chance will tell, and a Knight is going down. (Which is what happens, in these kinds of scenes. Watch Ironclad, The Seven Samurai, The Magnificent Seven, Aliens, The Two Towers. For a worse outcome of the same situation, see Zulu, with Michael Caine.)

In other words, "Is it possible for the Knights to be 'winning' because they're chopping through the orcs, even though they never gained the Initiative?"

Absolutely. And they shouldn't have the Initiative, because they never Seized it. They're fighting for their life against an onslaught and their only hope for survival is to endure and wait for the enemy's numbers to thin and their attack to weaken. (Or for Gandalf to come riding over the hill with reinforcements.)

Quote from: The Traveller;593766see if I can break the system.

By all means, please do. I want to break the system, so I can make it better. I welcome it.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;593791Let's be more specific: the question you're asking is "Is it possible for the Knights to be 'winning' because they're chopping through the orcs, even though they never gained the Initiative?"

Well what I'm actually trying to figure out is whether or not I can zap one character's super battle skill to a very high level and thus confer advantages to any number of mooks. By the time they've been thinned out, the remainder are supermen; if I can do that its definetely a crack in the system.

Are bonuses gained by having the initiative for several rounds conferred on enemies that the scary orc isn't intimidating, as in can the orcs apply their advantage to a seperate group of men at arms?

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;593791By all means, please do. I want to break the system, so I can make it better. I welcome it.

That's the aim of the thread!

Quote from: The Traveller;593806Well what I'm actually trying to figure out is whether or not I can zap one character's super battle skill to a very high level and thus confer advantages to any number of mooks.

The system scales up to company-level skirmishes, full-scale battles, even whole wars. Eisenhower Seized the Initiative when he landed forces in Italy, or at Normandy.

So, yes... technically. But there comes a point when the scale of a battle ceases being "party of adventurers vs. lots of enemies" and just becomes Army vs. Army. At that point, you're better off using the Mass Combat system or the Organizational Combat system. (Which have the Initiative, but you're not rolling for individual characters.)

On an individual basis, a leader can have a lot of followers. And everyone on the side with Initiative gets a bonus.

Quote from: The Traveller;593806By the time they've been thinned out, the remainder are supermen; if I can do that its definetely a crack in the system.

The max advantage is +9. It's a big bonus, don't get me wrong, but it's capped.

Two characters with equal skills hit each other 45% of the time. The +9 changes that to 90% of the time. So, a +9 is the equivalent of +45%.

That's not a superman advantage, but it's a significant advantage. Enough to allow a character with the most minimal of skill (2) to affect a Professional (10) 55% of the time.

Definitely not Supermen, however.
 

Quote from: The Traveller;593806Are bonuses gained by having the initiative for several rounds conferred on enemies that the scary orc isn't intimidating, as in can the orcs apply their advantage to a seperate group of men at arms?

If you mean reinforcements? Yes, it definitely applies. Hastily throwing reinforcements into a losing battle piecemeal is a bad idea. In real life, even.

Or do you mean a group of strangers who happen to wander by and just join in? That falls under GM's purview.

GM's Call

There are innumerable gambits, events, and surprises that can occur, which don't fall neatly under the above Seizing the Initiative and Pressing the Advantage rules. Any time one side or another succeeds in pulling off an unexpected attack or gambit (including, for example, an ambush), the GM can rule that one side or the other has effectively Seized the Initiative, or that no one has the Initiative.

(If you pull off an ambush, you Seize the Initiative. Send half the party away, let them prepare an ambush, the rest fall back, when the enemy chases you attack them unexpectedly... thus Seizing the Initiative. Perfectly valid tactic.)

Example 1: A group of Knights is fighting a band of Elves in a courtyard. The Elves have been building up their Advantage, and the Knights are being worn down.

Suddenly, a warband of orcs comes screaming into the courtyard and attacks both sides. The orcs have Seized the Initiative (by succeeding in an ambush). It's up to the Knights and Elves whether they want to continue fighting each other and the orcs, or whether they want to join forces.

Example 2: The players are in the base of a supervillain, in the caldera of an ancient volcano. They are being beaten, badly.

One player runs over and hits a switch that releases the lava from the geopower conduits. The lava flows into the room.

Everyone is shocked by the move, and the GM rules that no one has Initiative.

Every rule has a "GM's Call" exception: it's their role to apply rules in extraordinary circumstances.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;593840So, yes... technically. But there comes a point when the scale of a battle ceases being "party of adventurers vs. lots of enemies" and just becomes Army vs. Army.

Doesn't matter, as its not the point I'm seeing. What we have here are a group of knights who have just cut down the majority of their enemies with minimal losses, and yet are inexplicably at a disadvantage. Instead of growing weaker their enemies have instead grown stronger despite the attrition due to a semi-associated skill in the background.

Now I may be picking something up incorrectly here, but that seems like a meta-issue that could be exploited by a certain mindset.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;593840If you mean reinforcements? Yes, it definitely applies. Hastily throwing reinforcements into a losing battle piecemeal is a bad idea. In real life, even.

I'm just looking at the numbers, nothing more. The problem is the knights have by any measure been winning the battle, but suddenly the mediocre orcs are mighty against the mediocre men at arms, despite the fact that the men at arms haven't been intimidated at all.

Quote from: The Traveller;593849The problem is the knights have by any measure been winning the battle,

This is where we differ. The Knights haven't been winning the battle, they've been surviving the battle.

Victory isn't of necessity, always commensurate with body count. Take a look at the battles (and even wars) where those who lost actually killed more than their opponents.

The Knights (even if all four are alive) are barely surviving, battered, bloody, and on the verge of being killed (9 wounds). They are desperately holding on, a single lucky attack away from dying.

That's not winning. That's surviving. That's a true Last Stand moment, like all the ones I cited earlier.

Take Serenity, the Firefly movie. At the climax (SPOILER), the main characters are killing the Reavers in drives... but still slowly losing. People are worn down, dispirited, being critically wounded, going unconscious. Their body count in Reavers is irrelevant. They are losing.

Until the psychic ninja assassin has a mental breakthrough, and leaps to the attack. (Seizing the Initiative.) She begins to take the battle to the Reavers, breaks their charge and (eventually) slaughters all of them.

For the Knights to win, they'd have to pull something off like that.

Last Stands are so cinematic, it'd be a crime against action-movies to exclude such situations. This isn't a hole, it's a feature.

You can kill lots of mooks and still be losing. Fact of real life and cinematic life.

Quote from: The Traveller;593849Instead of growing weaker their enemies have instead grown stronger despite the attrition due to a semi-associated skill in the background.

And succeeding in attacks against the Knights. That is also a factor. As for "semi-associated"... when someone scares the living hell out of you, that's a pretty big factor. That makes everything harder.

"My hordes are innumerable... and when you die we will feast on the flesh of your women and children! Your villages will be put to the torch, and your land washed away under a tide of our might! You will all die!"

If you believe this — and a high intimidation total means you do — that's pretty dispiriting. It keeps one in a state of panic, where planning becomes very difficult.

These Knights aren't winning... they're just losing slowly.

Quote from: The Traveller;593849despite the fact that the men at arms haven't been intimidated at all.

But they have. By the stipulated description of the battle, the Warchief has been intimidating them. In fact, one or more of the Knights may just break because of it.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;593859You can kill lots of mooks and still be losing. Fact of real life and cinematic life.

But when it reaches the stage where you have three out of four knights and eight out of twenty four orcs remaining, you'd expect it to be a done deal barring physical interference. We have knights beating the enemy badly and yet quaking in their boots without referring to physical damage, its a bit counterintuitive.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;593859If you believe this — and a high intimidation total means you do — that's pretty dispiriting. It keeps one in a state of panic, where planning becomes very difficult.

Weighed against which must be that they are two sword strokes away from the source of their dismay. You're excusing the system rather than having the system excuse itself here, this is a classic corner case.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;593859But they have. By the stipulated description of the battle, the Warchief has been intimidating them. In fact, one or more of the Knights may just break because of it.

The original stipulation was only for knights vs orcs, no mention was made of the specific point of entry of the men at arms (which I'm using as a byword for soldiers), especially since they would have had a considerable effect on the numbers of orcs either alive or able to engage with the knights.

For the sake of argument lets say they wander in just as the last of the knights are duking it out; having not been intimidated they are now subject to the effects of the intimidation.

I stand over my initial assessment of this as a clever innovation, but it may need a little refinement.

Quote from: The Traveller;593862You're excusing the system rather than having the system excuse itself here, this is a classic corner case.

I’ll respectfully disagree. Corner cases should be problems that pop up nearly every time a specific circumstance occurs. Like the Glass-Jaw Ninja syndrome of Torg.

Whereas your example can only happen if:

1. The Orc warchief always succeeds at +11 or higher intimidate results, 7 rounds in a row. This would require him to have a skill of 20 + whatever the Knights' intimidate is. That’s literally “best in the world” or “best in all of history” status. (That’s a scary bastard.) Plus, he would never be able to roll doubles, which happens 10% of the time.

2. No group of orcs — even with an (effective) +6, +7, +8, +9, +10, or +11 bonus — can ever do 11+ wounds to a Knight. Even if they roll a +9. Meaning they have to be 20 points lower than the Knights on Attack. Placing the Knights themselves in super-skilled status.

3. The Knights each kill 4 orcs every single round, like clockwork. Never once rolling a -9 or doubles.

4. The Knights take no actions to Seize the Initiative.

It’s this last that’s actually the most problematic.

Corner cases have to be problems that arise because of the rules themselves. Yet in this case, you have specifically excluded the rules from being used.

“Suppose we forbid all weapons that could hurt a dragon. Now, the party is attacked by dragons and killed. Isn’t that a problem?”

Not really. If the tools they could use to deal with the situation are wholly taken away, the fact that they lose isn’t a reflection on the rules. They could succeed. Could easily succeed. They don’t only because they’re artificially hampered.

“Assume they have no hands…” But they do.

Deliberately excising parts of the rules that already address the (potential) problem doesn’t constitute a corner case.

I'll stipulate that if Players deliberately refuse to do anything to Seize the Initiative, deliberately refuse to employ the options that are available to do so, they will never get it.

This is a deliberate design decision. Their enemy may fritter away their Advantage, but until the Players do something to Seize, they don't get it. Ever.

So, the original potential issue was one of Knights killing a lot of orcs, yet never gaining the Initiative.

The rules cover this fine, in my estimation. It's a perfect Last Stand situation, where the Knights are surviving (by stipulation) but are not winning.

Quote from: The Traveller;593862But when it reaches the stage where you have three out of four knights and eight out of twenty four orcs remaining, you'd expect it to be a done deal barring physical interference.

It can be. As soon as the Knights do something to Seize the Initiative.

If they kill 4 of those 8 orcs, they Seize. (Happens in round 7, assuming no Knights drop and 4 orcs are killed a round.) If they kill all the orcs, they won. In neither case is there a problem.

This potential issue was only a problem because you specifically precluded the Knights from doing anything to Seize the Initiative — preventing them from using the actual Initiative rules. That's not a problem with the rules.

Quote from: The Traveller;593862We have knights beating the enemy badly and yet quaking in their boots without referring to physical damage, its a bit counterintuitive.

Here's the thing: the Knights will have taken physical damage. And been involved in a blind, panicked, desperate struggle for their very lives for what seems like an eternity. No opportunity to catch their breath, to make a plan, to stop and regroup or clear their minds. And been berated by a maniac with the capability and will to lay waste everything they love.

Yeah. They're at a disadvantage, and not at the peak of their game. It's inevitable. That's what the mechanics should represent.

Again, I see no problem here.

(Also, losing the Initiative doesn’t mean being scared, though that's possible, it means being disoriented, demoralized (read: in despair), and reactive.)

Quote from: The Traveller;593862Weighed against which must be that they are two sword strokes away from the source of their dismay.

But are unable to do anything about it. That’s not an empowering situation. Just that circumstance doesn’t clear one’s mind, give one focus, wipe away despair and fatigue.

Quote from: The Traveller;593862The original stipulation was only for knights vs orcs, no mention was made of the specific point of entry of the men at arms (which I'm using as a byword for soldiers), especially since they would have had a considerable effect on the numbers of orcs either alive or able to engage with the knights.

That’s true, which is why I’m confused. Are you adding something new to the scenario? If so, I’ll deal with that in a later post, when I’m less fatigued.

Quote from: The Traveller;593862it may need a little refinement.

I’m utterly sure it does. I’m uncomfortable with the wording on what constitutes Pressing and Seizing. It’s a little complex for my tastes. The intent is clear, and the rules seem like good ideas, but I’d like to clarify and streamline them if possible.

The reinforcements issue needs to be clarified. Essentially, if the reinforcements were part of the battle, just waiting in the wings (and here I’m thinking of a scene from Gods and Generals, with waiting regiments watching their comrades being cut down before they're sent into the battle).

New arrivals, with no previous involvement, should probably reset the Advantage bonus. Not Initiative, but the bonus. I’ll have to think on this.

I do appreciate your comments, and the reinforcements issue was an important clarification I’ll add to the rules, but the original problem you identified isn’t (to me) a problem.

Quote from: The Traveller;593862I stand over my initial assessment of this as a clever innovation

Thank you, very much. Especially in the community of jaded gamers, being able to offer something fresh (to make something fresh) is a rarity.

I hope the rest of the system works as well.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;593875New arrivals, with no previous involvement, should probably reset the Advantage bonus. Not Initiative, but the bonus. I'll have to think on this.

Not just that, I'd have a look at the mechanics of how the intitiative is gained - given the amount of options available in any given combat, its not easy to create a few categories and call them "winning" or "losing" in the middle of battle, but that's what you have to do in order to make it work without potential exploits. Or maybe cap the maximum number of mooks that receive the benefit, its open ended rules like this which crack under pressure.