From the 'designer entitlement" thread:

Quote from: S. John RossYeah, gameplay is the one and only grail.

I cannot agree with this more.  If I nod along, my head might come off.  Many game books are designed to be sold.  This is, of course, the worthy goal of any commerce, and I don't argue with it.  But the question still sits there, for me - are ther more and better to design a game to be played?

You can write for a niche (people that like a specific kind of play).

You can write for access (making a game that a non-gamer can learn how to play from).

You can write for fast pick-up (having an introductory adventure available, that kind of thing).

Maybe there are methods of marketing and support that best push "play me!" instead of "collect me!" that deserve notice.

What do you think?  What else?

There is nothing wrong with the "collect me" if it's done open-ended.

The thin red line to walk is to be illustrated by:

Palladiumbooks (good) vs: WoD (bad)

PB doesn't have a Metaplot, and every book is full of kewl ideas, strange creatures and awesomocity of the grandest order, that make you wanna play. Although it's not actually made for direct play.

WoD OTOH was totally harmstringing and metaplotting the GM to death.

Quote from: SettembriniThere is nothing wrong with the "collect me" if it's done open-ended.

The thin red line to walk is to be illustrated by:

Palladiumbooks (good) vs: WoD (bad)

PB doesn't have a Metaplot, and every book is full of kewl ideas, strange creatures and awesomocity of the grandest order, that make you wanna play. Although it's not actually made for direct play.

WoD OTOH was totally harmstringing and metaplotting the GM to death.

OWoD was, I get the feeling that NWoD has not yet fallen into that trap.

With time it probably will, but we're not there yet.

Otherwise, absolutely, books are for reading, games are for playing.  The two are not the same thing and if you want something to read, there is a world of great books out there on every imaginable topic.

QuoteOtherwise, absolutely, books are for reading, games are for playing. The two are not the same thing and if you want something to read, there is a world of great books out there on every imaginable topic.

I read. A lot. Mostly non-fiction or high literature to either satisfy my nosyness on the workings of the universe or my language craving.

I can't stand run-of the mill fiction, like the Stackpole stuff of my youth. I just cannot stand it. When I want escapism, I love to pull out a Rifts book, or Survival margin and wallow in it. Blame me, but I like it.

RPG books can be a great escapist read, and ignoring that is ignoring potential sales.

There are people, who only read RPG stuff. Those are problematic.

Hi!
  I don't want to sound like a weenie Levi, because I really respect the work you do.
  But, I don't think those kinds of games exist. However, I do think you tapped into something that is going on. I think that each game is being made with various goals receiving ifferent amounts of attention, divided between say:
Marketability
Playability
Artistic merit
Cost management
  And who knows, maybe other factors I didn't list here. So maybe Wotc is giving too much weight to marketability and WW is giving too much weight to artistic merit, but in the end they are all playable. Just, maybe, the playability got a different amount of consideration between the two.

Quote from: dindenverI think that each game is being made with various goals receiving ifferent amounts of attention, divided between say:

Absolutely.

I'm curious what the "play" ones are, most of all, and how to best write to that.

Because most of the time, I'm designing stuff just because, hey, I want to play this, and I love the hell out of it when others do, to.

What nonsense. All game books are designed to be both sold, and played.

You should not mistake their success or lack of success in achieving those ends for their actual ends. Just because it got crap sales, or plays badly, does not mean it wasn't designed to sell or play well.

Quote from: JimBobOzWhat nonsense. All game books are designed to be both sold, and played.

You should not mistake their success or lack of success in achieving those ends for their actual ends. Just because it got crap sales, or plays badly, does not mean it wasn't designed to sell or play well.

Some White Wolf books are explicitly marketed to readers, I think also some of the Tribe 8 stuff was written with readers in mind.

So I don't think you're right.  I think all game books are designed so that they can be played, but I don't think play is the purpose of all of them.  Some are just there to be read, some are there to be read and played by different people.

Quote from: JimBobOzWhat nonsense. All game books are designed to be both sold, and played.

That certainly wasn't the case with my own work in the area. Pure 'written for play' all the way.

Quote from: gleichmanThat certainly wasn't the case with my own work in the area. Pure 'written for play' all the way.

Paul Elliot (Mithras) too, his games are full games but distributed for free.  Definitely not all games are written to be sold.

Runebearer, Jags, there are quite a few fully developed essentially professional but entirely not for sale games out there.

Some game books actually draw you into playing solo parts of the game in the process of reading them.

Like they say "Okay, so think of a character name ..." and then a page later say "Your character came from some background ... choose one of these: Peasant, Noble, Church, Stripper, Swamp Toad."  Doing this seems (to me) to be a good way to lower the barriers to play, and get people jazzed about the prospect.

I'm thinking, particularly, of the Town Creation system from Dogs in the Vineyard, and the character templates from Feng Shui here.  Both of them have an almost palpable pull toward actually using the system.  Like "Okay, what Gun Schticks will your Killer have?" or "Pick a sin ... like illicit sex, or ingratitude, or violence, or ... yeah, I had you at illicit sex, didn't I?"

Quote from: BalbinusPaul Elliot (Mithras) too, his games are full games but distributed for free.  Definitely not all games are written to be sold.

"Price: $0" is still "selling." You're trying to persuade them to make the effort to download the thing. If this really was zero bother, then every free rpg would have as many downloads as it has page views on its home page.

Some games people won't even take for free. Many games, some people won't even take for free.

So there's always that "sale" process - presenting the thing in such a way that people want to trouble themselves to take it. Whether that "trouble" is money, download time, the weight of the thing in their bag, doesn't matter. It's a "cost" to that person.

By "sold" I mean, "people trouble themselves to take it." Thus, "all games are written to be both sold and played."

Nobody writes a game book hoping that no-one will ever want a copy, or that no-one will ever actually play with the damn thing.

I never said that anyone did.

Do you believe that some game books are written primarily for collectors, or no?

If so, what distinguishes them from those written otherwise?

Quote from: Levi KornelsenDo you believe that some game books are written primarily for collectors, or no?

Nope.

Many are designed in part to appeal to the collecting instinct of many gamers. Anything colourful and glossy, or anything that's unlikely to ever really be used much at all in play, such as The Book of Erotic Fantasy, or that enormous books of guns Palladium put out once. But those are quite obviously written both for play and for collectors.

Glossy colourful stuff sells, even if it has heaps of adverts and not much real information. That's why people happily pay ten or twenty bucks for magazines, when they complain at paying a buck for a newspaper. Still, people actually read both glossy colourful magazines, and newspapers. Both are designed to be sold, and read. Likewise, all sorts of rpg books are designed to be sold and played.

How well their design achieves either of these aims is an entirely different question.

Quote from: JimBobOzNobody writes a game book hoping that no-one will ever want a copy, or that no-one will ever actually play with the damn thing.

I wouldn't bet on that, this is a big world with lots of strange people in it.

In my case, it wasn't exactly nobody, but it was close. The only people I expected was my own gaming group, and maybe 4 or 5 people in rec.games.frp.advocacy.

I think that if I went the lulu route or self-publish, I'd sell maybe 15 copies and two of those would be to me.