Ok, Stormbriner was very interested in promoting D&D4 Skill Challenges, so I thought I would oblige by giving you some tips we've been kicking around on the GenCon judges list;

Here's a pretty good bit by Mike Lee:

QuoteThe Art of Subtlety in Running a Skill Challenge

Don't SAY there is a skill challenge. Telegraph it instead by formal speaking.

Ex.: "The bandit horde has left it's mark on this village. All the huts have burnt to the ground and the people are completely demoralized. The location of the lost ruins of Mord are the last thing these people care about. If your going to get any information, your going to have to help these people get their village back together and raise their spirits. This will not be short work."

That says "skill challenge" without revealing mechanical parts by actually saying the words. It states specific objectives that a player can attempt to solve. The last sentence is a reminder that this is not a short skill challenge.

New players may need to be reminded that, for example, if they suck at diplomacy, they maybe shouldn't try or they could make things worse. I recommend reminding them the old fashioned way by not reminding them at all. Describe the results of their botched attempt of whipping the people to go faster while shouting words of encouragement is not helping.

Mike is exactly right. The format of the skill challenge is to achieve a certain number of successes against a set of target numbers before 3 strikes are achieved (at which point the challenge fails).

This is good for parts in the game where you want to make a ruling

1) that involves use of skills
2) that could go either way
3) without handwaving it or just narrating it.

The DCs and such have been changed (see errata)

I've been using something similar to this since the earliest days of D&D3, when I ran a game involving a chariot race, and I was making the characters make dex checks and acrobatics checks and intimidate checks to see who would win. We also used a similar system in AD&D1e when one character attempted to tame a wolf.

Another tip (from me): in the more complex skill challenges you will notice there are a ton of rolls (as many as 12). One way to handle this is to "deal out" a pile of 20-siders into the middle of the table, and let the players divvy the dice up amongst themselves to determine who will be doing what in the challenge.

So for example, a group of players that wants to do something like play a Quidditch game (the most complex sort of challenge) might be given 12 dice to divide up. (So let's say the two characters with high athletics skill take 3 each- they're playing Beaters, and each roll gets narrated as perhaps a Bludger save or something.. you work with the players to make it interesting and dramatic ). The rogue might be able to use his thievery skill to do something sneaky like trip an opponent, or cheat somehow, so he takes two dice. The wizard standing on the sidelines uses his knowledge of history to remember some amazing plan from a Quidditch game of yesteryear that could be used to the groups advantage, so he takes a dice.

And then finally, maybe the Warlord calls a time out at some point, so he can use his diplomacy skill to inspire his team, argue a referee call.. or intimidate to scare the opposing Seeker.. or whatever else.

At this point, its all a matter of management and description: You can go around the table, and each player describes what skill he wants to use and the DM sets a description and a DC. Successful rolls are racked up, failures are thrown into the center in a "three strikes you are out" kind of way. The way I like to do it is one roll, then the next guy (even if one player has divvied himself 3 dice, I make them go around the table in order, just as if it were combat)

I'll go over some of the ones I've used in actual games in the following weeks. Most of mine are prety simple: 4-successes type challenges.

TIA.

Oh and the best part, is that success is success.

So if it's a 12-roll Skill challenge to "win a game of Quidditch", then as the 12th roll goes off, then that's when the DM should say "And ((player)) see's the Golden Snitch.. reaches for it.. and takes it! The game is over, your team has won!"

If the 3rd dice rolls up foul, that' when the DM narrates the scene where the players lose. Or the enemy chariots cut the players off on the final route, or the  rope breaks and the ship is lost at sea or whatever else.

But the important note (to go back to the list) is that Skill Challenges should really be used only when you could see it go either way. They shouldn't be used as life/death situations.

For example, a ship caught in the storm with the players acting as crew could be doing tons of stuff-- securing ropes (atheltics), arguing with the drunken navigator (diplomacy), reading the stars (yes, Arcana!). But if they lose, it's just as cool to say "The ship cracks up, and you are left with wreckage and debris, and perhaps a raft.."

...and have the DM wither throw you on the nearest island for some island adventuring, until they get the raft salvaged together or whatever.

Make losing as interesting as winning helps keep skill challenges manageable. After a while you will be able to improvise them.

I disagree.  The way to start a skill challenge is the same as starting any other challenge:

"Roll initiative."



Cheers,
Roger

Hmmm. I'm not certain that that is the best way in EVERY situation. I think the RPing might be better with my guys if I don't announce it. I might pull the old- roll a d20 and tell me the result.

Even being called by name, I will respond to this in a different thread to avoid de-railing this one.

I'd like to stay out of the firefight, but I don't understand the idea of a skill challenge. What is it for? What purpose does it serve?

My understanding is that it's a way to abstract situations by making a series of rolls based on various appropriate skills, but I'm not sure why this can't simply be done organically within the normal structure of play. If the players need to, for instance, get information, why make a skill challenge? Why not simply have the players' characters talk to people, and/or steal documents, and/or read the minds of the informed, or whatever they choose to do?

Quote from: Engine;232643I'd like to stay out of the firefight, but I don't understand the idea of a skill challenge. What is it for? What purpose does it serve?

My understanding is that it's a way to abstract situations by making a series of rolls based on various appropriate skills, but I'm not sure why this can't simply be done organically within the normal structure of play. If the players need to, for instance, get information, why make a skill challenge? Why not simply have the players' characters talk to people, and/or steal documents, and/or read the minds of the informed, or whatever they choose to do?

Well, some might say, why did I blow points on the diplomacy skill then? Beyond that, it is at it's best supposed to be a combination of RPing and dice rolling. Setting aside your example, look at another one, like finding lost ruins, or sneaking through an occupied castle. Dice rolls can help organize these events, and imo, add drama. Also it provides a codified way to give out xp based upon character success. Failure can have several results in the case of the lost ruins- you don't find them, or maybe you get lost yourself, or stumble into the Easter Bunny's lair. Blowing your attempt to get though the occupied castle could result in.... well you get the idea. beyond that you lose a healing surge if you fail.

Quote from: Engine;232643I'd like to stay out of the firefight, but I don't understand the idea of a skill challenge. What is it for? What purpose does it serve?

My understanding is that it's a way to abstract situations by making a series of rolls based on various appropriate skills, but I'm not sure why this can't simply be done organically within the normal structure of play. If the players need to, for instance, get information, why make a skill challenge? Why not simply have the players' characters talk to people, and/or steal documents, and/or read the minds of the informed, or whatever they choose to do?

It's fun, kind of like a minigame.

Here, I'll give you an example from one of my recent games:

The Player characters had found their way into a haunted elven burial grove, that had been corrupted due to the influence of intruders. Now, the elven spirits bund up in the trees were coming out in the form of phantoms and a spectre.

The PCs defeat the ghosts as normal. But in order to really rectify the situation, the wizard figures out that the grove has been corrupted and must be ritually cleansed and the central oak (where the body of an elven queen is entombed) must be re-sealed.  

So what des the Dm do, just say "ok, you reseal it" or go through a big extended talk-through or just handwave it? That's acceptable, but what if it's fun either way? And what if the players want to show off someskills?

So I made this a 4 roll skill challenge.

The Warlord used history to determine the history of the grove: success
The Ranger used Nature to physically prepare the tree
the wizard used arcana to cleanse the corrupt necrotic influence from the tree and then a second arcana roll to magically re-trace the protective wards over the grove.

Everyone had fun, everyone contributed. Skill Challenge.

At the next session, I had the ghost of the Elven Queen come out and thank the group for their hard work. It could have gone either way, and this was a great way of handling this scene.

Quote from: Aos;232652Well, some might say, why did I blow points on the diplomacy skill then?

But you haven't blown them: they determine the level of success [and should determine the behavior of the character] when the characters talk to people. Right?

Quote from: Aos;232652Beyond that, it is at it's best supposed to be a combination of RPing and dice rolling.

With you so far.

Quote from: Aos;232652Setting aside your example, look at another one, like finding lost ruins, or sneaking through an occupied castle. Dice rolls can help organize these events, and imo, add drama.

Well, yeah. But why the skill challenge, and not just rolling skills when they're appropriate? It seems like a minigame in the middle of a game, when the game actually has rules for the stuff that happens in the minigame, which is where I get confused.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;232663The Player characters had found their way into a haunted elven burial grove, that had been corrupted due to the influence of intruders....the wizard figures out that the grove has been corrupted and must be ritually cleansed and the central oak (where the body of an elven queen is entombed) must be re-sealed....

So I made this a 4 roll skill challenge.

The Warlord used history to determine the history of the grove: success
The Ranger used Nature to physically prepare the tree
the wizard used arcana to cleanse the corrupt necrotic influence from the tree and then a second arcana roll to magically re-trace the protective wards over the grove.

I so must be missing something. *goes out, has cigarette - bad Engine! - and thinks some more.*

Okay, let me try a different tack. How does the Skill Challenge differ from skill resolution under, say, 3.5e?

Quote from: Engine;232667Well, yeah. But why the skill challenge, and not just rolling skills when they're appropriate? It seems like a minigame in the middle of a game, when the game actually has rules for the stuff that happens in the minigame, which is where I get confused.

It IS a minigame inside the game, but then again, so is combat, and like combat success has both in game (you live/you get the duke's daugher to take off her dress/you die/she slaps you in the face and screams "Rapre" ) and metagame rewards and penalties (you get XP or lose a healing surge).
You can do it as isolated die rolls as you said or rp it out (in some cases anyway) and nothing is lost, but sometimes the skill challenge adds to the fun.

I think I may have to just re-read the rules. I'm doing an awful job of explaining why I find this confusing.

Quote from: Engine;232680I think I may have to just re-read the rules. I'm doing an awful job of explaining why I find this confusing.

pfft. I'm likely not doing a very good job at explaining it. I've done two of them, though, and the second one worked just fine- the first one, not so much. Beyond that, in regards to 3.5e no se nada. I never played it.

Quote from: Engine;232670I so must be missing something. *goes out, has cigarette - bad Engine! - and thinks some more.*

Okay, let me try a different tack. How does the Skill Challenge differ from skill resolution under, say, 3.5e?

Here's the terrible secret!

There's no functional difference. The only difference is that it restructures the rolls into a minigame instead of as one-off tasks. And you *still* use the one-off task method when appropriate. So more people are rolling, and the whole point of the challenge is an abstracted result, rather than a binary succeed/fail.

Skill Challenges are only really useful when you are trying to do something complex that can't be simply done as a one-off task, and that you don't want to resolve with a single roll.

More examples (these were under 3e that use something close to the exact same system)

Chariot Race through downtown Sigil - Under 3e, this was run as a series of skill rolls: intimidate, tumbling, handle animal, knowledge:geography. I just let players come up with shit and we would roll. I would handle this under 4e in the exact same way.

"Spider's Egg" - a "rugby" type game that the PCs had to play against a team of goblins in order to impress their queen. -- It involved things like tumbling, intimidates, and (to reach outside of the parameters of a skill challenge) bull rushing and ranged "to hit" to throw and catch the egg, and get it to the goal.