So this is actually for a skirmish wargame rather than an RPG, but it's something I've had trouble with when coming up with homebrew for both. I just feel that the usual 'rolling for damage and subtracting HPs' is lacking, but on the other hand I can't come up with anything to replace it that really clicks with me — and I've tried out a few. They're either cool but too fiddly or nice and smooth but, well, boring.
What's the most satisfying damage mechanic you've found in an RPG/wargame/boardgame?
[hard mode: no WHFRP]
I think the one I've grown to like overall when not doing D&D or a close cousin is damage based on the margin of success.
This could either be...
1) on its own with the check roll taking into account both the accuracy and damage potential of the weapon (usually best when attacks have sufficient potency that a near miss/graze would still do some damage to justify adding damage into the attack roll... or a system where the damage is mostly abstract so the effect is more about breaking the target's morale or some such).
2) with a modifier added after the check succeeds to reflect the difference in damage potential... typically most useful when the typical margin of success and the damage from a big weapon are relatively close to each other so that skill can matter, but the weapon itself isn't irrelevant.
3) as a multiplier to the margin of success. This one will generally get more realistic results, but is heavier on math needed by the players unless the margins and multipliers are relatively small.
Quote from: Chris24601 on December 20, 2024, 02:31:12 PMI think the one I've grown to like overall when not doing D&D or a close cousin is damage based on the margin of success.
This could either be...
1) on its own with the check roll taking into account both the accuracy and damage potential of the weapon (usually best when attacks have sufficient potency that a near miss/graze would still do some damage to justify adding damage into the attack roll... or a system where the damage is mostly abstract so the effect is more about breaking the target's morale or some such).
2) with a modifier added after the check succeeds to reflect the difference in damage potential... typically most useful when the typical margin of success and the damage from a big weapon are relatively close to each other so that skill can matter, but the weapon itself isn't irrelevant.
3) as a multiplier to the margin of success. This one will generally get more realistic results, but is heavier on math needed by the players unless the margins and multipliers are relatively small.
There's also a variation on this that can be seen in the Wrath & Glory game. Margin of success gives "Icons" that can be spent on activating special effects (some come from the weapon, some from talents or special abilities) linked to the attack. With any attack, it is possible to spend Icons on ED (extra-damage dice), but it is possible to get a result of 0 on an ED, so it's not a guarantee of extra damage.
Quote from: HappyDaze on December 20, 2024, 05:01:57 PMThere's also a variation on this that can be seen in the Wrath & Glory game. Margin of success gives "Icons" that can be spent on activating special effects (some come from the weapon, some from talents or special abilities) linked to the attack. With any attack, it is possible to spend Icons on ED (extra-damage dice), but it is possible to get a result of 0 on an ED, so it's not a guarantee of extra damage.
That sounds interesting! Seems like a good way to keep things smooth and moving along at a clip while avoiding the common pitfall of simplified mechanics where a dagger/9mm pistol often ends up doing the same damage as a battleaxe/50cal once it's gotten past armor etc.
Thanks, I'll check that out.
Frostgrave:
1. Both figures make a Combat Roll – roll d20 and add the figure's Fight stat and any other relevant modifiers (e.g. bonuses from magic or supporting figures).
2. Determine the winner by comparing Combat Rolls – highest wins.
3. Add any damage modifiers (such as +2 for a two-handed weapon or -1 for a dagger) to the winner's Combat Roll.
4. Subtract the opponent's Armor stat from this total.
5. Apply any damage multipliers.
6. If the final total is greater than 0, subtract that many points from the loser's Health. If it is 0 or negative, no damage is done.
7. The winner now has the choice to remain in combat or push either themselves or their opponent back by 1".
Rolling a natural 20 is a Critical Hit and automatically wins the exchange, even if the opponent has a higher total. Critical Hits have +5 damage.
Big fan of frostgrave, and yeah their hit/damage/armour mechanic is very neat! I like how you can beat an enemy's poor combat roll but still bounce off the armour regardless if you didn't roll well.
However I feel this does only work for medieval or possibly modern combat, where a good hit represents skillfully landing a blow in a weak point of the armour or a soft spot like the eye or throat. Once you start dealing with plasma cannon and such I feel the need to break the to-hit and the to-damage rolls up.
You've reminded me that I have a little gang of goblins to paint up for frostgrave though!
Quote from: Bubu on December 20, 2024, 09:27:54 AMSo this is actually for a skirmish wargame rather than an RPG, but it's something I've had trouble with when coming up with homebrew for both. I just feel that the usual 'rolling for damage and subtracting HPs' is lacking, but on the other hand I can't come up with anything to replace it that really clicks with me — and I've tried out a few. They're either cool but too fiddly or nice and smooth but, well, boring.
What's the most satisfying damage mechanic you've found in an RPG/wargame/boardgame?
[hard mode: no WHFRP]
If we are talking about TTRPG, then I would suggest that the first thing to start from is what level of realism and detail the game group wants or the tone of the rules we are developing.
At a high level of abstraction and freedom of interpretation, we can simply track the amount of HP, and if we get 0, roll on the "Death & Dismemberment" table
At the most realistic level, we can take, for example, a solution from GURPS, but then we must accept all the complications that follow from this.
Unfortunately, I have not encountered any elegant intermediate solutions, I will be glad to learn about them
Quote from: Bubu on December 21, 2024, 11:34:56 AMHowever I feel this does only work for medieval or possibly modern combat, where a good hit represents skillfully landing a blow in a weak point of the armour or a soft spot like the eye or throat. Once you start dealing with plasma cannon and such I feel the need to break the to-hit and the to-damage rolls up.
Stargrave uses the same system, and we hacked it to run a Star Wars campaign for about a year and a half. Combats run pretty quick and fluidly. Damage is something to be avoided as much as possible for unprotected characters.
I use Horrible Woulds from Mork Borg for injury after loss of hit points. It's led to some heroic moments.
https://zordvil.itch.io/horrible-wounds
Quote from: Melichor on December 22, 2024, 03:42:19 PMStargrave uses the same system, and we hacked it to run a Star Wars campaign for about a year and a half. Combats run pretty quick and fluidly. Damage is something to be avoided as much as possible for unprotected characters.
Oh yeah! I forgot they did a scifi version. I'll check it out and see if I can pilfer some ideas.
Quote from: MrTheFalcon on December 22, 2024, 07:39:15 PMI use Horrible Woulds from Mork Borg for injury after loss of hit points. It's led to some heroic moments.
https://zordvil.itch.io/horrible-wounds
This is the general thing I'm leaning towards — an 'out of action' removes them from the table, with an injury roll after the game. A lot of the older GW games I love do it that way — Mordheim, Blood Bowl, Necromunda.
I've made my Death and Dismemberment table target attribute scores, which can be healed but much more slowly than hp.
Wound systems are so much better than HP in every game I have seen them in. Goes for Both RPG and War game.
Quote from: StoneDev on December 24, 2024, 01:50:38 AMWound systems are so much better than HP in every game I have seen them in. Goes for Both RPG and War game.
Can you explain? In my experience wounds are just renamed HPs.
Quote from: Bubu on December 24, 2024, 02:44:49 AMQuote from: StoneDev on December 24, 2024, 01:50:38 AMWound systems are so much better than HP in every game I have seen them in. Goes for Both RPG and War game.
Can you explain? In my experience wounds are just renamed HPs.
The main difference in my experience is that wounds carry with them associated penalties so as you suffer more wounds your ability to attack, defend or do other things is also impaired.
For some this is more realistic. I'm ambivalent. Adrenaline is a hell of a drug and can keep people functional literally until they keel over deader than a doornail. Other times the wound isn't even life threatening, but completely incapacitates them. The human body is weird.
Love the topic, I'm also in the camp that it's all tradeoffs right? Like HP - damange is abstract & fast, whereas the DCC approach of tables & tables is fun, detailed, takes longer and requires a bit more book-keeping, e.g. oh your character is deafed for x rounds.
The whole idea where a wound is a non-hp status effect (slow, disadvantage etc) makes combat a different flavoured, and more detailed experience, but YMMV as to where you table lands on their preferences.
Oh forgot to declare my camp: HP - damange. Did try alternatives, but I guess its a default/ classic system for a reason, so easy to grasp, minimalist & smoothly gets out of the way of the story
Quote from: bardiclife on December 24, 2024, 03:36:49 PMOh forgot to declare my camp: HP - damange. Did try alternatives, but I guess its a default/ classic system for a reason, so easy to grasp, minimalist & smoothly gets out of the way of the story
Yeah, I'm in the same camp presently trying to smooth out a house rule for essentially hit points (or health levels if wound penalties won't be too complicate to deal with in Mutants & Masterminds 3e because the default of toughness saves that use different math (effect rank + 15 instead of effect rank + 10) than all the other checks and still require tracking accumulated failed saves is both swingier and more fiddly than most other damage track systems (and owes mostly to wanting to make the whole system run off only d20 checks.
I have a version that kinda works, but I dislike the fact that it requires all non-minions to basically have 50 hit points because the smallest granularity you can really get is a d20 to keep the math mostly working like the default game in terms of combat length and without needing to completely rewrite whole swaths of the powers system.
The houserule I'm using now is that if you hit, you roll 1d20+damage rank (which is probably about 10,but could be up to 15 in a typical game). The target then subtracts their toughness (probably ranging from 5-15 depending on concept) from that and takes what's left over as hit points from that pool of 50. While you're at 30+ damage taken you're also staggered (-5 to checks and half-speed; can spend a hero point to ignore until next time you take damage).
It's not BAD, I just reflexively dislike HP bloat and 50 feels like a lot (until you take 30 in single hit).
I could theoretically use degrees of success (beat toughness is 1 damage, beat by 5 is 2 damage, beat by 10 is 3, etc.), but that's just adding an extra step instead of reducing complexity.
Most non-hit point systems ultimately come down to different ways of achieving "X hits until you fall over" which is just concealed hit points.