@FraserRonald

No, you weren't suggesting rewriting the rules. That second paragraph doesn't belong in my post, so strike that sucker out. :bow:

Often in a well tuned system changing one piece tends to ripple out in a noticable, and occationally unexpected way. Playtesting implies that it might need further changes.

In this case with the ammuniton supply.  If that is the balancing factor you are going to count on for this change, and we assume that currently the system is balanced, then is the influence of ammunition supply going to need to be upped?  How to do that? And where will that change ripple too?

Of course knowing the system really, really well helps this a lot. Usually by playing with it for some time. But often I've see people read through a rules book once, or even played it for a while, and then say "well obviously this one thing has to change because of XYZ" and going ahead and doing that without realizing the ripple effect they are creating and it's far reaching implications.

I'm not saying that must be the case here, because I haven't even read the book/SRD. But that is something to watch for there.

From studying the Ranged Weapons table in d20 Modern, it's obvious that the HK G3 7.62mm assault rifle (shouldn't that be battle rifle?) is the best of the "Longarms", for use in just about any combat situation one might encounter in a d20 Modern adventure. The HK G3 has the best range and damage among longarms, and it can fire semi- or fully-automatic. Only a player who puts style and roleplaying above combat potential/effectiveness would want to settle for anything less than a HK G3, for his character. Yet when it comes to longarms in real-life, a 7.62mm battle rifle is seldom the first choice among commandos, special forces, SWAT teams, etc.

If a d20 Modern adventure involved the player characters going into a labyrinth-like office complex, shouldn't they prefer using submachineguns  over assault rifles, and especially over battle rifles? If another adventure involved the player character going into a cramped sewer system or clearing out a Vietnam-like tunnel and bunker network, shouldn't they prefer using pistols or sawed-off shotguns over anything else? Yet the d20 Modern rules for firearms are not conducive for that sort of thing, since in d20 Modern combat it's all about range, damage, and rate of fire – and nothing else.

Not that I'm advocating complex rules involving recoil and weapon speed/size, here. But surely, we can use something a little more detailed than what d20 Modern is giving us.

Quote from: T-WillardI've been thinking.

Why is Burst Fire its own feat?

If you've ever been trained on an assault rifle or other automatic weapon, you get training in burst fire (Which takes about 10 minutes) and most modern assault rifles have a built in burst setting.

So why wasn't the burst fire option just folded into the Advanced Firearms Profecency? You're already learning how to use automatic fire (which is pretty goddamn useless as written) with assault rifles, why not Burst Fire?

I'm rather fond of the way Spycraft 2.0 handles it...

Burst and Autofire are just ordinary attack actions.  Auto Fire is a full-round action on its own, and Burst Fire is a free action "trick" that you use to modify a normal attack.

For Burst, your recoil penalties are doubled (which amounts to nothing, if you're careful about your Str score and using both hands to shoot your gun), you use two additional bullets and the error range of your gun for this shot is temporarily increased by +1.  If you hit the target, you deal damage as normal.  If hit the target's defense by +5 or more, you deal two bullets worth of damage, and if you beat the defense by +10 or more, all three bullets hit and deal damage.

Autofire is similar, except that you get to decide the number of bullets in your volley and the penalties are a little bit heftier.  If you hit, one bullet hits, plus one for every +4 you exceed the target's Defense, up to the number of bullets in your volley.

A weapon with the gatling quality steps it up another notch...

QuoteGatling (GAT): This machine gun uses multiple rotating barrels to produce a high rate of fire.  It may only be fired in Full Auto mode, regardless of character options and other effects that might permit attacks in Single-Shot or Burst mode.
 
When this weapon is used to take an Autofire action, each volley uses 25 shots instead of the standard 3 (and again, no character option or effect may reduce this amount). Each target loses his dodge bonus to Defense against this attack, and 1 additional shot hits the target for every 2 which the attack result exceeds the target's Defense, rather than the standard 4.

Cynosure, are the concealment of items such as weapons a factor in the D20M rules? Or is it rare to find D20M games where that carrying an weapon inconspicuously is concern?  Likewise do legality issues ever come up, as it is legal to own a registered handgun and you won't get hassled for walking around with one. Hello Texas!  But try walk around downdown Dallas with a G3 and someone is going to eventually want to talk to you. Perhaps via a bullhorn.

Or are D20M games usually military theatre stuff where you are a soilder and it is perfectly reasonable for you to be carrying the biggest mofo weapon you can lay your hands on, functional requirements aside.

Quote from: blakkieCynosure, are the concealment of items such as weapons a factor in the D20M rules? Or is it rare to find D20M games where that carrying an weapon inconspicuously is concern?  Likewise do legality issues ever come up, as it is legal to own a registered handgun and you won't get hassled for walking around with one.

There are rules for legality and concealment of guns, in d20 Modern, which are affected (albeit to a minor, almost negligable extent) by what kind of gun you choose to carry/wield. But that is beside the point I was making, as those are factors determining whether or not you can acquire a particular gun, and whether or not you can bring it with you into a particular locale. The point I was making concerned the pro's and con's of the guns themselves, i.e. their performance and handiness in combat, in a variety of conditions and situations.

Besides, if you're playing in, say, a modern-day commandos or special forces campaign, or in an anarchstic near-future post-apocalpyse campaign, factors like legality and concealment aren't going to come into play often, if at at all.

Oh, I hear you about the lack of weapon functionality of the operating environment or, say, recoil during full auto not being factored into weapons. After all the carbine  and SMG classes of weapons were created specifically because of the confines of an urban battlefield, and because of the round that G3 uses it isn't going to be much use on full auto if your target is outside of spitting range.  But it'll sure screw up anyone that is inside spitting range.

I was just asking to see if they at least had some other factors involved.

Quote from: blakkieAfter all the carbine  and SMG classes of weapons were created specifically because of the confines of an urban battlefield, and because of the round that G3 uses it isn't going to be much use on full auto if your target is outside of spitting range.

Right. If, say, you are whipping around a corner or into a doorway, and in the adjoining room an enemy suddenly comes into view, a pistol or a submachinegun is a lot handier to have than an assault rifle or a battle rifle. But, again, the d20 Modern rules do nothing to represent those sorts of situations, which are actually quite common in urban battlefields.

Quote from: CynosureRight. If, say, you are whipping around a corner or into a doorway, and in the adjoining room an enemy suddenly comes into view, a pistol or a submachinegun is a lot handier to have than an assault rifle or a battle rifle. But, again, the d20 Modern rules do nothing to represent those sorts of situations, which are actually quite common in urban battlefields.

Described like that suddenly I had a flashback to the initiative modifier, or whatever it was called, for weapons in AD&D. And then an icy shiver ran up my spine. A baaaaad shiver. :imsorry:

It can probably be handled cleaner than that was. But still, the memories haunt...

Quote from: blakkieDescribed like that suddenly I had a flashback to the initiative modifier, or whatever it was called, for weapons in AD&D. And then an icy shiver ran up my spine. A baaaaad shiver. :imsorry:

It can probably be handled cleaner than that was. But still, the memories haunt...

Well, given the cyclic way combat rounds work in d20, speed factors for guns (or for any weapons, for that matter) wouldn't jibe as a modifier for determining initiative. But each gun should at least have a "snap shot" modifier, which applies to your attack rolls when firing during a maneuver such as I described.

9mm pistol: -0
.44 magnum pistol: -1
9mm submachinegun: -2
5.56mm assault rifle (carbine or bullpup version): -3
5.56mm assault rifle (full version): -4
7.62mm battle rifle: -5
7.62mm sniper rifle: -6

I just give a flat -4 to hit for using a longarm in a confined area, which is basically any internal space other than a warehouse, you can offset this penalty by taking a move action to aim. SMG, most bullpups and carbines don't have this modifier. This basically means you can move and fire with shorter weapons, but can't move and fire with longarms without having a penalty.

I allow pistols to be used in melee without provoking Attacks of Opportunity. Attacks with SMGs, bullpups and carbines in melee are at -2 to hit and longarms at -4 (these penalties can't be offset), and produce an AoO.

That generally incourages people to switch to lighter weapons when moving inside a building.

I agree with this, except

Quote from: BagpussI allow pistols to be used in melee without provoking Attacks of Opportunity.

What about during grappling?

Opposed grapple role the winner gets to use it, no matter who is holding it. I think that reflects the movie genre.

Quote from: blakkie@FraserRonald

No, you weren't suggesting rewriting the rules. That second paragraph doesn't belong in my post, so strike that sucker out. :bow:

I will consider it duly struck.

Quote from: blakkieOften in a well tuned system changing one piece tends to ripple out in a noticable, and occationally unexpected way. Playtesting implies that it might need further changes.

Very true, and why careful, incremental changes to any system, followed by rigorous playtesting is important. Even when playtesting suggests there may be an issue with anothe rule or section of the system, it's important to analyze and understand how and why the change is impacting that rule/section before making further changes.

If one has a good group with a good grasp of the system, it's easier to make changes on the fly. Removing changes and re-setting to normal with such a group--in my experience--is quite easy. Also, such a group is able to give better feedback and offer good ideas when there is something that needs changing.

Quote from: blakkieIn this case with the ammuniton supply.  If that is the balancing factor you are going to count on for this change, and we assume that currently the system is balanced, then is the influence of ammunition supply going to need to be upped?  How to do that? And where will that change ripple too?

When using encumbrance rules, and enforcing the recording of ammunition usage, ammunition in d20 is already an important factor in weapon balance. It's also important to remember the time factor in changing magazines.

Quote from: blakkieOf course knowing the system really, really well helps this a lot. Usually by playing with it for some time. But often I've see people read through a rules book once, or even played it for a while, and then say "well obviously this one thing has to change because of XYZ" and going ahead and doing that without realizing the ripple effect they are creating and it's far reaching implications.

And after doing so, watching their game go kla-blooie, and wonder what went wrong. Yeah, tinkering with rules without understanding them is like tinkering with an engine or electronic device without understanding it. Don't expect it to do what it did before one started one's tinkering.

Quote from: blakkieI'm not saying that must be the case here, because I haven't even read the book/SRD. But that is something to watch for there.

It's a good warning, and something to remember, whenever trying to "fix" a system.

Cheers.

Quote from: BagpussI just give a flat -4 to hit for using a longarm in a confined area, which is basically any internal space other than a warehouse, you can offset this penalty by taking a move action to aim. SMG, most bullpups and carbines don't have this modifier. This basically means you can move and fire with shorter weapons, but can't move and fire with longarms without having a penalty.

I allow pistols to be used in melee without provoking Attacks of Opportunity. Attacks with SMGs, bullpups and carbines in melee are at -2 to hit and longarms at -4 (these penalties can't be offset), and produce an AoO.

That is a good compromise. It gives at least a nod toward realism, thereby making pistols and submachineguns a more viable option.