I've been thinking.

Why is Burst Fire its own feat?

If you've ever been trained on an assault rifle or other automatic weapon, you get training in burst fire (Which takes about 10 minutes) and most modern assault rifles have a built in burst setting.

So why wasn't the burst fire option just folded into the Advanced Firearms Profecency? You're already learning how to use automatic fire (which is pretty goddamn useless as written) with assault rifles, why not Burst Fire?

Because the people who wrote d20 Modern knew nothing about firearms? (look at the weapon ranges)

No, I don't see any reason for this, but I'm not sure why each heavy weapon has it's separate exotic proficiency either

You know the answer to this, B'wana....   it's bullshit, fix it!  

It'd take what, 2 pages max?  heh

And also why does Burst Fire make it harder to hit someone, when the point of it is to make it more likely that you hit someone? :ponder:

Oh yeah game balance.... :brood:

Quote from: BagpussAnd also why does Burst Fire make it harder to hit someone, when the point of it is to make it more likely that you hit someone? :ponder:

Oh yeah game balance.... :brood:

The whole point of burst fire was to put multiple rounds within the same space before barrel rise takes the barrel too far off target.

The feat and mechanics negate it.

Speaking as someone who has actually used burst fire one handed (the infamous sling wrap method of one handed shooting) and full auto, burst fire is a FUCKLOAD more accurate, and a lot more devestating that single shot.

The rules are FUBAR'd, and I can't figure out why.

It because WotC worship at the temple of game balance, "if it does more damage it must be harder to hit" (like Power Attack). :brood:

They also say that D20 Modern is a game and reflect action movies more than reality. It is not ment to simulate reality. So the best idea is to forget about it and try and not let reality get in the way of having fun.

What I can't understand is that the Burst Fire and Autofire rules bug the hell out of me in D20 Modern, but in Feng Shui where Burst and autofire has no effect other than to look cool, I'm fine with. :imsorry:

I personally find Autofire more annoying.

A_C_XX__
____XE_C

Attacker (A) can hit enemy (E) but not hit Civilians (C), by targeting area (X) inculding the enemies square. The bullets just magically appear in those four squares and stop before exiting them.

Quote from: BagpussI personally find Autofire more annoying.

A_C_XX__
____XE_C

Attacker (A) can hit enemy (E) but not hit Civilians (C), by targeting area (X) inculding the enemies square. The bullets just magically appear in those four squares and stop before exiting them.

That's how D20m works? :confused: Ya, I'm not sure exactly how that is suppose to "reflect action movies"? Here I was thinking I really should be giving D20m a chance by looking through it as opposed to thinking that the whole concept of guns in D&D wasn't still busted.

On the subject of poorer aim with burst fire; It's an old saw in games with firearms, and making it harder to hit isn't actually strictly required for balance. It is probably the quickest patch to do it, and because it's the most immediate place to do it it seems to be done a lot.  In truth the objective of balance, in this instance, would be to encourage a mixture of semi-auto versus always using burst fire.  There is an actual reason to use semi-auto versus burst fire, ammo conservation.  So if you design the game so that ammo usage difference between semiauto and burstfire is important then presto, balance.

Another way is Feng Shui's balance, in that there is perfectly good reasons for switch to semiauto. When it's the coolest option to the players. Especially if you have Movie Magik Magazines™ that's all nice and balanced, in that you'll have a player pleasing mix of semiauto and burstfire because each is a viable option.

P.S. Offhand making Burst Fire a Feat certainly sounds wack.  But such is the effect of trying to pound a square peg into a triangular hole....returning us to my previous stance of expecting poor results of trying to enact modern firearms in a D&D based system.

From the D20 Modern SRD

QuoteAutofire
If a ranged weapon has an automatic rate of fire, a character may set it on autofire. Autofire affects an area and everyone in it, not a specific creature. The character targets a 10-foot-by-10-foot area and makes an attack roll; the targeted area has an effective Defense of 10. (If the character does not have the Advanced Firearms Proficiency feat, he or she takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll.) If the attack succeeds, every creature within the affected area must make a Reflex save (DC 15) or take the weapon's damage. Autofire shoots 10 bullets, and can only be used if the weapon has 10 bullets in it.

While I like the fact it represents the sort of spray and pray effect of targeting an area rather than an individual it does mean you can end up with a situation like I mentioned before.

Since the target area has a civilian in front of it, it counts as having cover, so it's Defense is 14, instead of 10. But if you make the roll no chance of the civilian being hit, and since the bullets don't travel beyond the 10ft by 10ft area no chance of hitting the baby in the pushchair an inch behind your intended target if you pick the right 10ft by 10ft area.

I wonder why they didn't make it a cone of roughly indefinate length, depending on weapon?  That would actually make a bit more sense.  You'd still have to have to add a tweak for people closer to the shooter providing cover to those further away and behind, something that D&D proper actually provides in some measure with arrow fire.

Brad Clark, the guy who tells me how things work in the real world and who actually uses weapons, hates the autofire and burst rules as well. His arguement was the same: "I learned it the same day I learned how to use an assault rifle." I figure it should be wrapped into the Advanced Firearm Proficiency. But, again, as others have mentioned, it's a balance thing. Force the firearm users to spend an extra feat, lower their chances to hit, don't make firearms too effective in-game versus hand2hand combatants.

It also bugs me that most low-level characters can only fire one round from a semi-automatic weapon in 6 seconds. In 6 seconds, people trained in firearms could put a lot of effective lead downrange. Doesn't take long to empty the magazine of a Beretta 92, and that's when one is actually hitting things with the bullets.

Quote from: FraserRonaldBut, again, as others have mentioned, it's a balance thing. Force the firearm users to spend an extra feat, lower their chances to hit, don't make firearms too effective in-game versus hand2hand combatants.

That's probably the biggest non-realistic aspect in RPGs.  Typically bringing a knife to a gunfight is usually a fatal mistake, but far less so in games.

It is also probably the one place that the fewest people complain about favouring balancing of options over realism. Likely due partially due to ignorance, but I'm guessing mostly to do with liking the movie version where unarmed people take on swordwielders and knives go face-to-face with firearms regularly and are treated as roughly on par.

Quote from: blakkieThat's probably the biggest non-realistic aspect in RPGs.  Typically bringing a knife to a gunfight is usually a fatal mistake, but far less so in games.

It is also probably the one place that the fewest people complain about favouring balancing of options over realism. Likely due partially due to ignorance, but I'm guessing mostly to do with liking the movie version where unarmed people take on swordwielders and knives go face-to-face with firearms regularly and are treated as roughly on par.

That's all very true. And like you pointed out earlier, ammo consumption is a realistic and consistent balancing factor that affects the use of burst fire.

The beauty part is, in one's game, one can make the rules whatever the heck one wants. This one includes burst fire with advanced firearms proficiency.

Quote from: FraserRonaldThe beauty part is, in one's game, one can make the rules whatever the heck one wants. This one includes burst fire with advanced firearms proficiency.

Old saw.  Problem being every you change things around you have to settle it all out. If you rip something appart bigtime then you end up effectively playtesting for a while, sometimes a long while. Which tends to bring rules confusion with it.

Because balance isn't just for the sake of itself. There is actually a motivation and goal behind it. Or should be.

Ya sure, you could even rewrite the whole ruleset. But then why the hell are you using it as a base to start with if it is that far out of wack from what you are looking for?

Quote from: blakkieOld saw.  Problem being every you change things around you have to settle it all out. If you rip something appart bigtime then you end up effectively playtesting for a while, sometimes a long while. Which tends to bring rules confusion with it.

Because balance isn't just for the sake of itself. There is actually a motivation and goal behind it. Or should be.

Ya sure, you could even rewrite the whole ruleset. But then why the hell are you using it as a base to start with if it is that far out of wack from what you are looking for?

Well, in this case, with it being a single feat, it didn't cause too many problems. House rules are good in that they can be added incrementally, and with each step comes plenty of playtesting. If it's a problem, it's simply ripped out.

It is true that if you rewrite the whole ruleset, you might as well buy a new system. That's not what I was suggesting.

Quote from: BagpussAnd also why does Burst Fire make it harder to hit someone, when the point of it is to make it more likely that you hit someone?

The primary purpose of burst fire is to put multiple rounds into a single target, thereby increasing the weapon's stopping power. But if the target is far away and if you find yourself having to take multiple, separate shots to hit that target because your aim wasn't spot-on with your first shot, then you are better off firing semi-auto than you are, burst. That's because it's easier and faster to re-adjust/fine-tune your aim between semi-auto shots than it is between bursts.

d20 Modern does nothing to reflect this, however.