I tried to convince a new group not to use minis but was outvoted 5 to 1. I'm actually a fan of minis and the 4e system but in trying D&D Next and with not having any real tactical rules, I wanted to get back to my roots (AD&D) and try theatre of the mind again.
Unfortunately it seems like nobody is interested in even trying it. I'm wondering if I should even press the issue or not. But if I did, how would you recommend I go about it?
Let them play with them, but don't engage with them yourself. Use less 'tactical ' language. Wean them off slowly.
Yeah minis themselves are just cool toys. I enjoy playing with them but not fixated on having to use precise tactical positioning and such.
Bring out the minis, they are useful for marching order and can be useful for knowing generally who was where when a trap or spell goes off.
Ditch the grid though. Use a rough 1" = 5 or 10 feet and eyeball it. Put a stop to the square counting and the minis themselves are still quite fun to use.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;679291Yeah minis themselves are just cool toys. I enjoy playing with them but not fixated on having to use precise tactical positioning and such.
Bring out the minis, they are useful for marching order and can be useful for knowing generally who was where when a trap or spell goes off.
Ditch the grid though. Use a rough 1" = 5 or 10 feet and eyeball it. Put a stop to the square counting and the minis themselves are still quite fun to use.
That. I mean, I use Dwarven Forge a lot, and it's still just eyeballing it and abstracting. They're cool toys. :)
Quote from: Exploderwizard;679291Ditch the grid though. Use a rough 1" = 5 or 10 feet and eyeball it. Put a stop to the square counting and the minis themselves are still quite fun to use.
All the players insist on a grid. If I have to use minis I'd prefer to just have a whiteboard and squiggle some trees or rooms down and maybe use spell templates (I have a bunch of cones, cylinders, etc. cut from transparent plastic).
I'm more trying to figure out how to get them off the minis altogether but I'm finding it difficult to come up with convincing arguments. I'm fairly strict on some things at the table but for something like this, I believe it's better to be democratic. If I insist or put my foot down, I'm likely to just alienate and piss them off.
Some people really really prefer the grid and minis.
I am comfortable with or without, and I started out back in the day without grids and minimal minis just for marching order :)
I can't say I relate to the burning need for a grid soem people have, but ultimately the goal is for everyone at the table to have fun.
I will go out on a limb as say it appears to me that some of the 'must use grid' stems from a player that feels they lose control without a grid.
I would stop drawing out a large-scale map of the rooms or environment. Use minis only to show marching order and, during combat, which characters are in which mêlée groups. But don't show positioning in the engagement groups, just clump them together in piles
Quote from: The_Rooster;679237I tried to convince a new group not to use minis but was outvoted 5 to 1. I'm actually a fan of minis and the 4e system but in trying D&D Next and with not having any real tactical rules, I wanted to get back to my roots (AD&D) and try theatre of the mind again.
Unfortunately it seems like nobody is interested in even trying it. I'm wondering if I should even press the issue or not. But if I did, how would you recommend I go about it?
If they like it, they like it. The minis are also part of the roots of the hobby :)
Play something completely different that does not require props? Get them to explore how different games can operate?
We used to play a mix of minis and "theater of the mind" with AD&D, so I don't think that AD&D ever established just a "theater of the mind" playstyle. We typical played with minis (if the the players and DM actually had them) if it was a complicated battle usually with a lot of enemies.
Quote from: hamstertamer;679322We used to play a mix of minis and "theater of the mind" with AD&D, so I don't think that AD&D ever established just a "theater of the mind" playstyle. We typical played with minis (if the the players and DM actually had them) if it was a complicated battle usually with a lot of enemies.
Minis are mentioned as an optional component of play from the very earliest versions of the rules, even back to the original OD&D set.
A lot of old school players were also wargamers and had plenty of minis on hand.
Its the BS square counting that sucks time away.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;679331Minis are mentioned as an optional component of play from the very earliest versions of the rules, even back to the original OD&D set.
A lot of old school players were also wargamers and had plenty of minis on hand.
Its the BS square counting that sucks time away.
I admit I'm a fan of minis for painting and display, but not huge on using them for tactical combat. As you say, we mostly use minis for things like marching order, but almost never on a grid.
That being said, Next does have a lot of rules for grid support/reliance. It was much harder to play without minis in Next than it was in TSR era D&D because Next has a big reliance on 5' squares, especially in regards to weapon reach and opportunity attacks. If you prefer to ignore opportunity attacks and weapon reach similar to what you would do in AD&D, it's not as big of an issue. But if you play with those, along with certain feat skills, there is a lot of 5' increment measurements that you have to factor in. This new packet less so than the previous one, but there's still a lot of it there.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;679341I admit I'm a fan of minis for painting and display, but not huge on using them for tactical combat. As you say, we mostly use minis for things like marching order, but almost never on a grid.
That being said, Next does have a lot of rules for grid support/reliance. It was much harder to play without minis in Next than it was in TSR era D&D because Next has a big reliance on 5' squares, especially in regards to weapon reach and opportunity attacks. If you prefer to ignore opportunity attacks and weapon reach similar to what you would do in AD&D, it's not as big of an issue. But if you play with those, along with certain feat skills, there is a lot of 5' increment measurements that you have to factor in. This new packet less so than the previous one, but there's still a lot of it there.
Rule #1 : THERE ARE NO 'FREE' ATTACKS OF OPPORTUNITY
If you want to hold your action and delay you may.
There. Fixed 90% of the grid based shennanigans.
QuoteRule #1 : THERE ARE NO 'FREE' ATTACKS OF OPPORTUNITY
Free attacks (or attacks of Opportunity) are in AD&D.
Quote from: hamstertamer;679350Free attacks (or attacks of Opportunity) are in AD&D.
It was more of "the target you're in melee with is leaving the area" and less of "anything moving into or out of a 5' radius (10' with longer weapon) prompts yada yada yada." I.e., not really grid dependant.
YMMV of course.
Quote from: hamstertamer;679350Free attacks (or attacks of Opportunity) are in AD&D.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;679351It was more of "the target you're in melee with is leaving the area" and less of "anything moving into or out of a 5' radius (10' with longer weapon) prompts yada yada yada." I.e., not really grid dependant.
YMMV of course.
Free attacks but not AOO. :)
Quote from: Exploderwizard;679353Free attacks but not AOO. :)
Same thing. When I picked up 3.0 books i saw the continuation of the idea from AD&D to 2nd AD&D to 3rd.
Quote from: hamstertamer;679404Same thing. When I picked up 3.0 books i saw the continuation of the idea from AD&D to 2nd AD&D to 3rd.
Not quite.
In AD&D you may attack an opponent attempting to disengage from melee.
In 3E, you make an OA against someone who moves more than 5' and leaves a threatened square. That target may very well
still be in melee combat with you!3E lends itself to far more fiddly square counting BS.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;679450Not quite.
In AD&D you may attack an opponent attempting to disengage from melee.
In 3E, you make an OA against someone who moves more than 5' and leaves a threatened square. That target may very well still be in melee combat with you!
3E lends itself to far more fiddly square counting BS.
Yeah. In AD&D, it was what? roughly one paragraph? In 3e, it was an entire page, including a half page photo diagram of how it works.
Quote from: hamstertamer;679322We used to play a mix of minis and "theater of the mind" with AD&D, so I don't think that AD&D ever established just a "theater of the mind" playstyle. We typical played with minis (if the the players and DM actually had them) if it was a complicated battle usually with a lot of enemies.
*shrug*
I said
my roots, not
the roots.
When I learned AD&D it was from picking up a DMG because someone had introduced me to the concept of RPG's through another system. The cover looked cool. I taught myself and only ever played with people who had never played before until I was about sixteen. So I was the one teaching others, not the other way around.
So the concept of minis to me was anathema to gaming at all. It was all theatre of the mind stuff. It wasn't until much later that I got into minis because I was tired of using dice and bits of fluff and cheetos to argue things with players about locations of their characters and enemies and terrain.
As I said, I'm actually a big fan of minis and 4e (I think with a few basic math tweaks, it's the best system WotC has ever developed and I think it's a crying shame that people have hated on it so much that I can't even find players for it) is fairly reliant on them. I just wanted to try something different and as it's a playtest, wanted to use the opportunity to get some nostalgia time in.
My players are three younger people who are all Pathfinder enthusiasts as that's what they've started with (and I despise 3x/Pathfucker). The two older people are my best friend who had the same experiences as me with gaming (mostly because most of our gaming we've done together), and the other person was like people here who used minis (or chits) from the very start of their Basic days.
They all like the grid and minis.