Quote from: JohnnyWannabeI think the thing that gave me the idea you were shooting for "camp" is your original post in which you state:

"Mars is a cool, dry world, with canals. Venus is a steamy tropical paradise. Both teem with life! I could do this one of two ways - totally hard science, or rayguns and rockets. Either one would be fun! Entirely in-system stuff."

That, could be perceived as camp.

Camp is not necessarily a bad thing. Hell, most RPGs are, by their very nature, campy, especially when they take themselves too seriously. Maybe your definition of camp varies from mine. *shrugs*

As you state, it's the approach that determines the end product.

Perhaps mine does. It's the commonly accepted one, though:

camp adjective
1.    providing sophisticated amusement by virtue of having artificially (and vulgarly) mannered or banal or sentimental qualities; "they played up the silliness of their roles for camp effect"; "campy Hollywood musicals of the 1940's"

noun
6.    something that is considered amusing not because of its originality but because of its unoriginality; "the living room was pure camp"

American Heritage Dictionary
camp 2       (kāmp)  Pronunciation Key
n.  

   1. An affectation or appreciation of manners and tastes commonly thought to be artificial, vulgar, or banal.
   2. Banality, vulgarity, or artificiality when deliberately affected or when appreciated for its humor: "Camp is popularity plus vulgarity plus innocence" (Indra Jahalani).


adj.   Having deliberately artificial, vulgar, banal, or affectedly humorous qualities or style: played up the silliness of their roles for camp effect.

v.   camped, camp·ing, camps

v.   intr.
To act in a deliberately artificial, vulgar, or banal way.

v.   tr.
To give a deliberately artificial, vulgar, or banal quality to: camped up their cowboy costumes with chaps, tin stars, and ten-gallon hats.

-clash

Quote from: JohnnyWannabeIn retrospect, I wouldn't even approach it as Pulp. I'd approach it as old, classic sci-fi with the warning that reality goes out the window when you make Mars and Venus living worlds. But, anyways, I don't care. It's your project and I'm sure it will be awesome in the end.

Exactly, Rich! This is the approach to take! Forties/Fifties SF.

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceThe only problem I see in approaching it as Pulp - Christ, I love Pulp! - is that there has been an explosion of quality Pulp games recently. Cheesy Pulp is fine - that's no problem either. But Campy is an attitude that I think is vile, and will have no truck with.

-clash

Clash,
I keep drawing comparisons to Shades because I really see this project in that light...not so much alt-history-pulpy but a version of it with alt-history-classic sci-fi. Very much Heinlein "Moon is a Harsh Mistress" and his early Space Cadet series for Boy's Life.

Is that what you are talking about?

Bill

Quote from: HinterWeltClash,
I keep drawing comparisons to Shades because I really see this project in that light...not so much alt-history-pulpy but a version of it with alt-history-classic sci-fi. Very much Heinlein "Moon is a Harsh Mistress" and his early Space Cadet series for Boy's Life.

Is that what you are talking about?

Bill

Bingo!

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceBingo!

-clash

O.k. I will be perfectly honest and say I always skimmed the science parts. Sorry. I will leave calculating balistics and such to you. My degree in physics is old and unused. I loved the stories though and I am quite familiar with the tropes. A certain naivete that might be a bit difficult to recapture but a lot of fun to play. Let's see if we can get a list going:

Tropes of Clash's new game
1. Hard science is your friend, but a double edged sword.
2. Science knows no loyalties and serves any master smart enough to command it.
3. Good is Good, Evil is Evil.
4. Traitors are always the wormy guy.
5. Good is smart, dapper and well groomed. Evil can be just about anything, but never your best friend.
6. Evil is often powerful but can also be the Thing you hint down to the dark corners and stamp out. ex. Moon is a Harsh Mistress is "Evil is powerful" and Space Cadet is "Good is powerful but must always be vigilent".
7. Training is important. Heroes start weak and grow strong by learning then doing.

Those are the ones that leap to mind. What do you want to keep, throw out or add? Am I close?

Bill

Quote from: HinterWeltO.k. I will be perfectly honest and say I always skimmed the science parts. Sorry. I will leave calculating balistics and such to you. My degree in physics is old and unused. I loved the stories though and I am quite familiar with the tropes. A certain naivete that might be a bit difficult to recapture but a lot of fun to play. Let's see if we can get a list going:

Tropes of Clash's new game
1. Hard science is your friend, but a double edged sword.
2. Science knows no loyalties and serves any master smart enough to command it.
3. Good is Good, Evil is Evil.
4. Traitors are always the wormy guy.
5. Good is smart, dapper and well groomed. Evil can be just about anything, but never your best friend.
6. Evil is often powerful but can also be the Thing you hint down to the dark corners and stamp out. ex. Moon is a Harsh Mistress is "Evil is powerful" and Space Cadet is "Good is powerful but must always be vigilent".
7. Training is important. Heroes start weak and grow strong by learning then doing.

Those are the ones that leap to mind. What do you want to keep, throw out or add? Am I close?

Bill

Keep them all. It's a good start!

I'll add:

8: Friends - especially good friends - are vital. It's not who you know, it's who you know.
9: The fight goes to the competent.

-clash

Quote from: Kyle AaronAlso, terraforming the Moon has been seriously looked at by HW Renn.

Any attempt to terraform a body without a magnetic field is pretty much doomed to failure.  If they want to get really serious about terraforming Mars, they need to knock one or more big moons into it to reliquify it, add water and gasses, and hopefully enough radioactives and iron to generate a magnetic field when they sink to the core.  Callisto is a decent candidate because it's big, apparently has a hot radioactive core, has water, and is far enough from Jupiter that it would be the easiest of those big moons to knock free, though Ganymede and Europa are also good candidates.  How do you move a moon?  By playing gravitational billiards with ever larger asteroids.

Well, you could argue that Venus and Mars does have magnetic fields, they just didn't know about it at the turn of the last century!

Quote from: Rob LangWell, you could argue that Venus and Mars does have magnetic fields, they just didn't know about it at the turn of the last century!

Right, Rob. Since Venus and Mars have always had life, they must have magnetic fields. Since the Jovian and Saturnian moons may have been/were colonized, they were probably areoformed.

-clash

Here's the basis for my Mars map:



A repeat of my Mars map for comparison:



Lowell and the other astronomers of the time saw bright and dark features (Albedo features) on Mars, which they interpreted as best they could as terrain features. The above picture compares the maps they created by hand with actual Hubble photos of Mars. The match is pretty good, but where did those canals come from? Of course the bright and dark features were mis-interpreted, but they were RIGHT in the game world, so the interpretations are what we have to work with.

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceHere's the basis for my Mars map:

Lowell and the other astronomers of the time saw bright and dark features (Albedo features) on Mars, which they interpreted as best they could as terrain features. The above picture compares the maps they created by hand with actual Hubble photos of Mars. The match is pretty good, but where did those canals come from? Of course the bright and dark features were mis-interpreted, but they were RIGHT in the game world, so the interpretations are what we have to work with.

-clash

Cool. I will noodle on this. A lot of thoughts come to mind. I especially like the idea of colonies further out. Allow them to have maintained their tech level and suddenly you have an explanation for UFOs.

Good stuff Clash!

Bill

Quote from: HinterWeltCool. I will noodle on this. A lot of thoughts come to mind. I especially like the idea of colonies further out. Allow them to have maintained their tech level and suddenly you have an explanation for UFOs.

Good stuff Clash!

Bill

Great idea!

-clash

What about having the martians as the first sentient species.

So the ancient martians rose to a level of technology that they spread out over the solar system making colonies on all of the planets.
They also found that both Earth and Venus had primitive native life forms, these they altered into low intelligence slave workers that they used to gather natural resources.
At some point in the distant past the martians broke into a civil war that was   fought across the whole solar system, Mars was blasted back into the stone age and only the distant outpost on Ganymede maintained its level of technology intact.
Meanwhile back on Earth, the dinosaurs that were the result of the martians work lived and then died out by a unlucky asteroid strike, mammals evolve and in time turn into humans who explore the solar system.
On venus, due to the planets atmosphere being filled with radiation from nukes and also the planets rotation knocked into a reverse spin evolution slows down - its only in the last 2,000 years that they have gained a stoneage level of technology.

Rog.

Let's blend some of these ideas:

The Martians are a dying race, but they were once mighty. They explored the solar system, terraforming the Jovian moons and satellites of Saturn. They uplifted small, intelligent dinosaurs from earth, who became their workers. The Martians themselves died out everywhere but Mars, which is drying out. The canals were the last gasp of their mighty technologies, and enable widespread, though thin, life on the Red Planet. Also peopleing Mars are descendants of human and dino slaves, who have won their freedom.

On Venus, evolved descendants of humans and dino slaves both inhabit the world, a hot, steamy jungle world, full of dangers and surprises. The humans and dinos are scattered in a thousand city states. No single empire has ever managed to unite all of them, or even a large minority. Flora and fauna from both Earth and Mars has been imported, and integrated into the Venusian native life.

On the outer moons, human and dino worlds exist, some one, some the other, and some both. Different species of each have evolved over the long separation. The outer worlds have retained their technology, but have heretofore been mostly concerned with each other. Now that Earth humanity is moving around in the inner system, though, things are changing.

Sound interesting?

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceLet's blend some of these ideas:

The Martians are a dying race, but they were once mighty. They explored the solar system, terraforming the Jovian moons and satellites of Saturn. They uplifted small, intelligent dinosaurs from earth, who became their workers. The Martians themselves died out everywhere but Mars, which is drying out. The canals were the last gasp of their mighty technologies, and enable widespread, though thin, life on the Red Planet. Also peopleing Mars are descendants of human and dino slaves, who have won their freedom.

On Venus, evolved descendants of humans and dino slaves both inhabit the world, a hot, steamy jungle world, full of dangers and surprises. The humans and dinos are scattered in a thousand city states. No single empire has ever managed to unite all of them, or even a large minority. Flora and fauna from both Earth and Mars has been imported, and integrated into the Venusian native life.

On the outer moons, human and dino worlds exist, some one, some the other, and some both. Different species of each have evolved over the long separation. The outer worlds have retained their technology, but have heretofore been mostly concerned with each other. Now that Earth humanity is moving around in the inner system, though, things are changing.

Sound interesting?

-clash

It sounds interesting, but the question is, "What do the PCs do?"