If you were holding a samurai sword, and someone was trying to touch you, would they be able to do so without almost certainly being hit by your sword? Would moving in to touch you basically require them to accept being hit?
Would it make any difference if it was a Martial Arts master? In Bruce Lee films he tends to disarm opponents with weapons rather than fighting armed vs unarmed. If you were facing off against a Martial Arts master, could you hold them at bay with a Samurai Sword, meaning they could not attack you without opening themself up to being hit?
Now, if you were to attack THEM with the samurai sword FIRST, how much difference would that make in their being able to touch you?
Now, however you felt about that... to what extent would the following make it easier or harder:
1) trying to punch or kick the sword holder, instead of just touching them
2) trying to cut them with a small knife, instead of just touching them
3) trying to bite them
4) trying to stab them with a spear
5) trying to tap them with a quarter staff
I'm more interested in what you think would *actually* happen in the above circumstances, rather than how any particular game handles those situations.
Edit: Please assume a non-Bruce Lee type for #1 to #5. :)
Quote from: StuartIf you were holding a samurai sword, and someone was trying to touch you, would they be able to do so without almost certainly being hit by your sword? Would moving in to touch you basically require them to accept being hit?
Would it make any difference if it was a Martial Arts master? In Bruce Lee films he tends to disarm opponents with weapons rather than fighting armed vs unarmed. If you were facing off against a Martial Arts master, could you hold them at bay with a Samurai Sword, meaning they could not attack you without opening themself up to being hit?
Now, if you were to attack THEM with the samurai sword FIRST, how much difference would that make in their being able to touch you?
Now, however you felt about that... to what extent would the following make it easier or harder:
1) trying to punch or kick the sword holder, instead of just touching them
2) trying to cut them with a small knife, instead of just touching them
3) trying to bite them
4) trying to stab them with a spear
5) trying to tap them with a quarter staff
I'm more interested in what you think would *actually* happen in the above circumstances, rather than how any particular game handles those situations.
Great set of questions -- I'm not an expert, so none of my answers would come from a "what would really happen in reality" perspective.
I do think this kind of distinction is very important in games that model fantasy attacks. I like D20's attempt at this (the defender doesn't get an armor bonus) -- but I suspect that it might not go far enough.
My random thoughts on this subject:
1) what really (in my non-expert, totally wrong ideas about hand-to-hand combat) stops a lot of attacks from "hitting" is that if I step into range with you, *I* get hit unless I'm sneaky.
Some games sort-of model this, but I think it's why people, IRL, circle and feint rather than standing toe-to-toe and trading blows.
2) Weapons give a significant advantage because of reach (I'm making this stuff up, remember, so it's what I see in movies and boxing matches). Getting close to someone with a sword, safely, should be harder than getting close to someone unarmed. Someone with a sword can probably whack at someone who's unarmed fairly safely.
3) I think that there's a big difference in utility in a touch attack that requires concentration (I have to focus to trigger my poison glands) and one that is totally passive (I'm dangerous to touch because... I'm on FIRE!!) -- the first still probably requires a to-hit roll of some kind. The second... not so much.
In game terms, I think modeling hesitation is very tricky -- in many games it's assumed to be part of what happens between dice rolls (in D&D, each "round" included lots of feinting, dodging, circling, etc.) or it's treated as a special case (and often not a wise one).
I can't think of a mechanical solution I've seen that does it elegantly.
I'm out of random thoughts for right now, but your question hit on something I was thinking about recently, so here they are.
Cheers,
-E.
I will note that I'm amused by people who get upset that in WFRP, you can't actually disarm someone without having the appropriate talent.
I mean, I'm no great expert on combat, but it strikes me that disarming someone is pretty fucking difficult. Doing anything that would be a kind of "touch attack" style maneuvre would also be really fucking difficult, especially if your opponent is armed; and ESPECIALLY if you're not.
RPGPundit
QuoteI mean, I'm no great expert on combat, but it strikes me that disarming someone is pretty fucking difficult. Doing anything that would be a kind of "touch attack" style maneuvre would also be really fucking difficult, especially if your opponent is armed; and ESPECIALLY if you're not.
Yes, I should have added that!
6) trying to touch them with your hand, but you also have a sword
I think this one would be a lot more manageable, especially if you have a mental image of cinematic style combat with locked blades. :)
I like how GURPS does it by using a specially enchanted staff or wand, your touch is then extended to the end of it. In fact a staff shortens your range to any target for spell casting by it's length when pointed at the target.
I doubt anyone would try 1, 2 or 3. That's just suicidal. Even a clumsy whack from a mall ninja could do massive damage while you tried to close with the target.
4 is a historical situation. Hellenic battles would have involved a great number of spear/sword combats. Certainly someone's gotten a thesis out of studying Greek military statistics. :)
The Okinawans developed the bo specifically to engage katana-armed samurai. A little digging in that direction could yield dividends.
EDIT: Portuguese Fighting Staff (http://physicalstrategies.blogspot.com/2006/10/jogo-do-pau-portuguese-staff.html)
QuoteThe Okinawans developed the bo specifically to engage katana-armed samurai. A little digging in that direction could yield dividends.
I've had a few lessons with a bo staff, and you do a fair bit of blunt-end stabby stabby with it. I always thought using those techniques with a spear would work pretty well -- but didn't know if that was just an Eastern fighting style.
You know, there's like a butt-load of gangs at my school. This one gang kept wanting me to join because I'm pretty good with a bo staff.