Combat and Chargen in my RPG, for context

beejazz · July 17, 2012, 10:19:29 AM

It doesn't totally fit with the other threads, but I'm posting this here for context. Just for the sake of having something that details the core of the system.

Some of this is old, so there may be some errors.

First bit is design goals.

Spoiler

This is pretty much the game I'd like to play and run.

Since in person I tend to teach new players rather than find existing ones, half my goals are already set for me.

1) The game must be easy to learn.
2) The game must be easy to use.
3) Combat should be fast.
4) The game should include the "addictive" elements of RPGs, especially the quest for personal power.
5) The game need not have all the D&Dism fixings (for example, Vancian magic or Tolkeinian races).

The other half of the design goals are more personal preference based on how I run games.

1) The game should work reasonably well if I only run one fight in a day.
2) The game should have guidelines for the social and exploration aspects as well as the combat.
3) There should be elements of mystery and horror.
4) The game can pick up more recent fantasy tropes, including those of anime or videogames.
5) The game should encourage accomplishing things in game, with little or no thought given to the means by which this is done.

Trailing that are relatively minor details that have more to do with making this less hard to write.
1) The core should be robust enough that it doesn't need too many exception-based mechanics.
2) Mechanics should on some level be "effects based." To give an example, if multiple classes should have access to the same or similar powers, those powers should just be accessible to both (rather than having slightly different versions of the same thing).
3) Keywords should be recycled over and over as necessary. If a bunch of weapons have reach or can't parry, it may be best to cover how those things work and just use the keyword from then on.
4) Game aids should be designed for use. For example, there will be a place on the character sheet for tracking wounds that will also be useful for rolling the wounds (so that never has to be looked up). Also, the skill portion of the sheet will make ability swapping on skills extremely easy.
5) I may only give super-concrete stuff for the "core" of what the rules will cover, leaving further edge cases to GM discretion with only rough advice.

Next bit is rough rules on chargen.

Spoiler

Abilities
Players pick race and class before abilities. Race and class will help determine two "max" abilities that are automatically 16 (+3 modifier).
All other abilities are 4d4 in order.
Abilities are strength, dexterity, constitution, speed, intelligence, will, perception, and charisma.

Skills
Players get about 5 skill slots (haven't nailed it down yet). Each race and class allows certain skill groups. Players can spend a slot to train a class/race appropriate skill group or they can train any one skill. Additionally, classes are automatically trained in some offensive (light melee, heavy melee, projectile, thrown, unarmed, magic) and defensive (dodge, parry, shield) skills. Those attack and defense skills aren't part of any skill group.

Additionally, each class and race gives the player a trained save. Saves can't be trained with skill slots. Saves include perception, will, speed, and constitution.

All skills are (ability) plus (level). Trained skills get +3. Same goes for saves.

Race and Class
Each race grants one max stat.
Each race grants one trained save.
Each race determines some number of available skill groups.
Each race gives the player some power automatically.
Most races have some constant ability like scent or darkvision.

Each class grants one max stat.
Each class grants one or two trained saves.
Each class determines some number of available skill groups.
Each class gives the player some powers automatically.
Most classes have some constant ability like armor proficiency.

Perks
Every level after 0th, players pick one perk.

Perks follow an SPU format. SPU stands for Stance Power Utility.

This gets explained in more detail on the classes, races, and powers thread.

Last bit covers combat basics.

Spoiler

At its most basic, combat works like a D20 game. Initiative is rollled, turns are taken, you can attack and move, and there are AoOs. But there are details that really make it different by a bit. Characters need to spend actions to defend themselves, meaning that if you are even a little outnumbered you're either getting hit or spending the whole round on defense. Classes specialize in ranged or melee combat, and are better at defending themselves in one or another circumstance, so your archer really doesn't want to be in melee and your melee warrior wants into melee as soon as possible. Wounds are incapacitating and harder to heal, so they might change your objective to retreat even before anyone in your party dies. And terrain is both de-gridded and maybe better statted using zone based movement.

Action Types
There are five action types: main action, move action, reaction, free action, and non-action.

You may take one main action per round, and only on your turn. Main actions include attacking or casting a spell.

You may take one move action per round, and only on your turn. Move actions include movement, drinking potions, etc.

You may take one reaction per round, and it need not be on your turn. Reactions include defenses and attacks of opportunity.

You may take unlimited free actions on your turn, but only on your turn. Free actions include talking.

You may take unlimited non-actions in a round, and it need not be on your turn. Non-actions include saves.

The trade-down rule
You may always trade down, using a larger action to complete a task that would normally be a smaller action type. For example, you can use your main action to move, save your main and move actions to defend yourself later, or use a reaction to speak out of turn.

Attacking
By default, attacks are 1d20+(skill).

Default weapon damage covered in one of the other threads. It's (dice) + (ability mod) + (level). Crits add a flat bonus depending on the weapon.

Massive Damage and Wounds
Characters have a massive damage threshold of 10 + (con mod) + (level). If the damage dealt by one attack exceeds this threshold, you must roll on the wounds table. Wounds include things from stunning or knockback to severed limbs or KO.

Defending
Characters must spend a reaction to dodge, parry, or use a shield. Their skill roll sets the DC of any given attack.

Dodge is most useful against ranged attacks, parry is most useful against melee, and shields are useful against both.

If a character doesn't defend, the DC is set by their skill unmodified by a roll.

Points, Zones, and Movement
Zones are areas from 10 to 20 feet across. Their boundaries correspond to the edges of rooms, hallways, bridges and the like. If no such features exist (such as outdoors) then zones are expressed as hexes. Zones can have traits, such as difficult terrain, cover, concealment, or cramped space.

Points are landmarks within zones by which characters can navigate. Doors, stairs, statues, tables, or trees might all be expressed as points. Points can have traits such as cover or "choke point" (if people must pass through a point to move to the next zone, it is a choke point; choke points can be used to force attacks of opportunity).

_____________

Most characters can move anywhere in their own zone, an adjacent zone, or the next zone as a minor action. Difficult terrain or wounds may reduce that speed, while mounts or other factors may increase it.

Characters can also engage with other characters within two zones as a move action. Doing so provokes an attack of opportunity. Once a character has engaged he can make melee attacks against anyone also engaged in the same group (If Bob is engaged with Fred and Fred is engaged with Sue, Bob is engaged with Sue).

Characters can opt or be made to withdraw from melee. When they do, they are in the periphery of the group they were in, and can only hit or be hit by reach weapons. When it matters, assume that such movement happens in three or five foot increments.

_____________

Ranges include melee, zone (anyone in your zone), and an increasing number of zones, up to sight.

Areas include target, group (people engaged in a group), and zone (everyone in a zone).

MGuy · July 17, 2012, 11:43:12 AM

You should probably get to work on making a "Social" and "Exploration" minigame at least as robust as your combat engine if you want the game to focus on all three with any equality. Also if you want the game to stay simple you should make sure your combat engine never gets to the point where you'd need a game mat to play. I suggest taking a look at this thread on doing abstract locations. Its not something I want to do (I like a meaty amount of rules) but it seems to work in theory.

I don't know how "max stats" work so I have only the most wary feeling about them. I don't suggest tying an attribute score too hard to race or class unless you want specific race/class combinations to be significantly better at certain skill tasks then others (which is ok if that's what you're going for).

Other than this everything looks pretty solid.

beejazz · July 17, 2012, 01:47:50 PM

Quote from: MGuy;561080You should probably get to work on making a "Social" and "Exploration" minigame at least as robust as your combat engine if you want the game to focus on all three with any equality.

I'll get to that. There's a lot to solidify and put out yet. I've got reputation tracking by hexmap and all kinds of cool stuff on the way.

The combat rules can in some ways be pretty important to discouraging combat though. The potential for large groups to threaten high level characters is pretty important for making social pressure matter, for example.

And I'm writing movement and the like to extend and work well in non-combat contexts as well.

QuoteAlso if you want the game to stay simple you should make sure your combat engine never gets to the point where you'd need a game mat to play. I suggest taking a look at this thread on doing abstract locations. Its not something I want to do (I like a meaty amount of rules) but it seems to work in theory.

I'll be getting to the zone rules soon, but they're roughly similar to those in Old School Hack, IIRC. It's a larger scale than a grid, and I'm pretty confident it works well with AoOs and all (I developed the rules for use with 3.5, and have run with them most games I run).

QuoteI don't know how "max stats" work so I have only the most wary feeling about them. I don't suggest tying an attribute score too hard to race or class unless you want specific race/class combinations to be significantly better at certain skill tasks then others (which is ok if that's what you're going for).

Max stats just mean that you get a free 16 for your class and another for your race. The rest are rolled in order. The application to those skills is pretty intentional.

MGuy · July 18, 2012, 01:24:12 AM

Quote from: beejazz;561113The combat rules can in some ways be pretty important to discouraging combat though. The potential for large groups to threaten high level characters is pretty important for making social pressure matter, for example.

Good luck making that social minigame that sweeps from getting a sweet deal on an item in the market place to high society intrigue. I started to ponder doing such a thing and was almost driven insane.

QuoteMax stats just mean that you get a free 16 for your class and another for your race. The rest are rolled in order. The application to those skills is pretty intentional.

So your race and your class both get you a free 16 but I have to ask what happens when you got your race and your class giving you a free 16 in the same stat?

Bloody Stupid Johnson · July 18, 2012, 08:19:27 AM

Quote from: MGuy;561381Good luck making that social minigame that sweeps from getting a sweet deal on an item in the market place to high society intrigue. I started to ponder doing such a thing and was almost driven insane.

The bad news is that if you're trying to build a social system you're trying to model human behaviour patterns, and as Justin Alexander said - this is something a supercomputer may have problems with, let alone a tabletop RPG. (I think that's more or less it, anyway - loosely paraphrasing). Most systems amount to "Face guy rolls 47 to Diplomacy, face guy wins" but really, to get something that works, you would really need a system not just for modelling win/loss Diplomacy checks but also the personality of the NPC - perhaps something like Pendragon or FATE's Aspects. Though I'm not sure its worth the effort; personally I'd rather roleplay through it, perhaps with a Charisma check.

beejazz · July 18, 2012, 11:53:24 AM

Quote from: MGuy;561381Good luck making that social minigame that sweeps from getting a sweet deal on an item in the market place to high society intrigue. I started to ponder doing such a thing and was almost driven insane.

I'm not so much writing one big social system, because as you say that's pretty misguided. Social rules (unlike combat) have to happen at multiple scales and be even broader.

I'll be writing systems for reputation, domain management, morale, individual skills, tracking political power, etc.

As for skill use, 3.5's bluff is my ideal. Difficulty scales with the level of the person you're bluffing against (in that system with sense motive, in mine with a save) as well as circumstantial factors. And the results are short term (unlike 3.5 diplo).

QuoteSo your race and your class both get you a free 16 but I have to ask what happens when you got your race and your class giving you a free 16 in the same stat?

I've considered letting class choose one of two instead of being made to pick one. Then I could say that if it overlaps, you have to choose the other. So a troll soldier gets strength as a troll, strength or constitution as a soldier, and ends up with 16s in strength and con.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;561440The bad news is that if you're trying to build a social system you're trying to model human behaviour patterns, and as Justin Alexander said - this is something a supercomputer may have problems with, let alone a tabletop RPG. (I think that's more or less it, anyway - loosely paraphrasing). Most systems amount to "Face guy rolls 47 to Diplomacy, face guy wins" but really, to get something that works, you would really need a system not just for modelling win/loss Diplomacy checks but also the personality of the NPC - perhaps something like Pendragon or FATE's Aspects. Though I'm not sure its worth the effort; personally I'd rather roleplay through it, perhaps with a Charisma check.

I'm less after modeling human behavior and more after short term bonuses through skill use, plus ways to interact with the larger social structure. I think it should be easier to model (sorta) feudalism than human psyche stuff.

Bloody Stupid Johnson · July 18, 2012, 12:23:44 PM

Quote from: beejazz;561472I'm less after modeling human behavior and more after short term bonuses through skill use, plus ways to interact with the larger social structure. I think it should be easier to model (sorta) feudalism than human psyche stuff.

Sorry about the rant; I think MGuy found one of my trigger topics ...

I had more of a look at the rest of it as well. Looks good.
I particularly like the 'trading down actions' to perform a free action out of turn, and the grouping of AoOs into an action type rather than being unspecified/their own thing as in 3.x

I was considering something similar to that awhile back (integrating AoOs into immediate actions) and thinking how to fit Combat Reflexes into that framework - you could do it by saying a character with Combat Reflexes can perform an AoO as a non-action [Dex mod] times per turn. If reactions can't be performed when 'flat-footed', that would give the 'can perform AoOs while flat-footed' effect as well, as a side effect.

Unrelatedly, on the attributes: Gamma World 7th edition (the recent one) does a [take max] for each of two traits as well; it has a rule where if they both overlap you get a higher max - I think it uses 18 instead of 16/16. (?)
I do wonder though if two 'max' abilities for free is too many in a game with only 8 attributes.

beejazz · July 18, 2012, 01:13:43 PM

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;561483I particularly like the 'trading down actions' to perform a free action out of turn, and the grouping of AoOs into an action type rather than being unspecified/their own thing as in 3.x

Yeah, I've had and liked this idea for a while, and now it looks like they're using something similar in Next.

QuoteI was considering something similar to that awhile back (integrating AoOs into immediate actions) and thinking how to fit Combat Reflexes into that framework - you could do it by saying a character with Combat Reflexes can perform an AoO as a non-action [Dex mod] times per turn. If reactions can't be performed when 'flat-footed', that would give the 'can perform AoOs while flat-footed' effect as well, as a side effect.

Personally, Combat Reflexes was one of my favorite feats, but I never liked how it favored the rogue. If you look at the soldier powers, you'll see how and why I prefer that archetype to have AoO benefits.

For converting it for use with a reactions system, I'd just make AoOs non-actions. Usually people who take Combat Reflexes have a higher dex mod than they'll typically be able to use in a round. A lot of this depends on whether you tend to fill the field with enemies and use a grid, though. So if you find people having more than 4 opportunities for an AoO per round, that distinction will still be useful and you should go with more or less what you said.

QuoteUnrelatedly, on the attributes: Gamma World 7th edition (the recent one) does a [take max] for each of two traits as well; it has a rule where if they both overlap you get a higher max - I think it uses 18 instead of 16/16. (?)
I do wonder though if two 'max' abilities for free is too many in a game with only 8 attributes.

I don't know if it will be too much or not. As it stands, I want people to be pretty good at a defensive and an offensive stat. Usually at least. I know it's complicated by how some stats can circumstantially be both. I'm most worried about people being shafted on saves by random rolling, or getting too good at too many by getting max stats and a good save lined up. I'm probably worrying about nothing though, as I've deliberately narrowed the math quite a lot from the 3.x baseline.

Bloody Stupid Johnson · July 18, 2012, 08:08:08 PM

Quote from: beejazz;561494Personally, Combat Reflexes was one of my favorite feats, but I never liked how it favored the rogue. If you look at the soldier powers, you'll see how and why I prefer that archetype to have AoO benefits.

For converting it for use with a reactions system, I'd just make AoOs non-actions. Usually people who take Combat Reflexes have a higher dex mod than they'll typically be able to use in a round. A lot of this depends on whether you tend to fill the field with enemies and use a grid, though. So if you find people having more than 4 opportunities for an AoO per round, that distinction will still be useful and you should go with more or less what you said.

By 'favour the rogue' you mean because of the Dex minimum?? I tend to have mostly seen warriors with good Dex as well, but I guess most of the groups I play 3.5 with use very high point buy (either 40 points or with 80 points divided 1:1 between the stats, or in the current Pathfinder game their standard heroic method).
I partly agree though. Its perhaps a bit funny that to be a longspear guy is more Dex-intensive than anything else except Finesse and a rapier.

QuoteI don't know if it will be too much or not. As it stands, I want people to be pretty good at a defensive and an offensive stat. Usually at least. I know it's complicated by how some stats can circumstantially be both. I'm most worried about people being shafted on saves by random rolling, or getting too good at too many by getting max stats and a good save lined up. I'm probably worrying about nothing though, as I've deliberately narrowed the math quite a lot from the 3.x baseline.

I don't know how it will work out in your RPG, but I would expect most stats to have some defensive application (in 3.x say, even Strength has some defensive benefit vs. grappling and trip/bullrush for instance). Depending on how many attacks and options are available, a single high defensive stat may not be overly useful, since the attacker may be able to switch to a weaker point in the defenses. I probably can't really comment without seeing the finished system, though.

MGuy · July 19, 2012, 08:39:10 AM

A question occurs to me. Why do you have "auto max stat" provisions in your game at all? What function does it do that helps your game?

Also, judging from what I'm reading it sounds like player characters will be quite capable in and out of battle. Usually in "horror" themed games characters are usually kept at a disadvantage and combat is usually very punishing such that players should fear for their safety. How are you going to facilitate this with characters that have such high stats?

beejazz · July 19, 2012, 10:07:51 AM

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;561654By 'favour the rogue' you mean because of the Dex minimum?? I tend to have mostly seen warriors with good Dex as well, but I guess most of the groups I play 3.5 with use very high point buy (either 40 points or with 80 points divided 1:1 between the stats, or in the current Pathfinder game their standard heroic method).
I partly agree though. Its perhaps a bit funny that to be a longspear guy is more Dex-intensive than anything else except Finesse and a rapier.

This is about what I mean. Fighter-wise, I tend to favor con myself. But yeah, the longspear needs dex bit is a little weird from where I stand.

QuoteI don't know how it will work out in your RPG, but I would expect most stats to have some defensive application (in 3.x say, even Strength has some defensive benefit vs. grappling and trip/bullrush for instance). Depending on how many attacks and options are available, a single high defensive stat may not be overly useful, since the attacker may be able to switch to a weaker point in the defenses. I probably can't really comment without seeing the finished system, though.

Quote from: MGuy;561852A question occurs to me. Why do you have "auto max stat" provisions in your game at all? What function does it do that helps your game?

Also, judging from what I'm reading it sounds like player characters will be quite capable in and out of battle. Usually in "horror" themed games characters are usually kept at a disadvantage and combat is usually very punishing such that players should fear for their safety. How are you going to facilitate this with characters that have such high stats?

There will be five saves (strength, perception, will, fortitude, reflex) and three different defensive skills (dodge, parry, shield).

Typically, people will have max stat and trained skill on their offensive abilities for a total of +6. If people pile max stat and training on defensive abilities, they'll only have two saves at +6. If the max stats and training don't line up they can get up to four saves with bonuses, but they'll hover around +3.

I've got max stats for about the same reason you've got both stats and skills at all, and because I want people to be able to choose their class and race, want abilities to matter in those contexts, but don't want full roll and assign.

As for horror, that comes in elsewhere. I've got another thread on here where I try to keep average hits (for equal opponents) close to 3, assuming people can defend themselves all the time. I also work in that thread to keep 1 hit kills possible for as long as possible (longer than vanilla D&D, not counting magic).

Then on top of that there are wounds (leaving 1 hit KO pretty much always a possibility) and the active defense mechanic (if you get ganged up on you're fucked).

And I'm including 4e style monster roles, except that minions are tougher (they "pop" on a wound, which is only 25% likely assuming equal levels) and there are unique solo types including horrors (bypass hp, permanent or long term consequences, abilities for ambush tactics, etc.) and kaiju (destroy terrain, have range and movement such that they can often get away before you kill them).

And then there's all the little details about things like darkness and water. The light spell is an aura, so as long as you've got it on you can't use any defensive/movement/other stances. Torches get put out easy by water. Drowning will be easier, as will grappling. So enemies straight drowning you is very likely in some cases. That sort of thing.

beejazz · July 21, 2012, 04:48:54 PM

So I've got zone movement rules (or the rough skeleton of them) in the OP under combat now if anyone would like to look through.

In addition, here are the mass combat rules:

_______

When soldiers and the like fight in formation, groups are handled as if they were individual entities, with some exceptions.

Damage is converted so that every attack rolls one die and a flat bonus.

Hit points are pooled.

The minion rule applies (when the group is wounded, it loses a member for each wound). The number of group members is tracked, and affects the action pools.

Actions are pooled, so that the number of main, minor, and reactions is each equal to the number of members in the group.

Multiple attacks against the same target are rolled simultaneously. After attacks are rolled, for each success a damage die is rolled.

_______________

And that's really most of what happens when you convert a unit to a group for mass combat. I may also rule that when group hp goes low, the remaining members scatter and flee with what's left of the hp. There may also be morale effects that get individual members to flee before that.

Bloody Stupid Johnson · July 21, 2012, 08:16:26 PM

Seems like zones wouldn't work with minis, but would some mapping of the area for PCs, rather than describing? Probably need quite a few rules to fully describe all the possible features of 'zones'. A 'choke point' as described works for a narrow hallway where an opponent on each side can swing, or where there are arrow slots each side, but not a tighter point again like a doorway where all the opponents can be blocked from advancing and fought one or two at a time.

The multiple opponent rules look OK. Multiple damage rolls could be very slightly awkward in your system since each is a roll of 2 dice, if its the same as the base combat system ?

beejazz · July 21, 2012, 08:39:40 PM

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;562737Seems like zones wouldn't work with minis, but would some mapping of the area for PCs, rather than describing? Probably need quite a few rules to fully describe all the possible features of 'zones'. A 'choke point' as described works for a narrow hallway where an opponent on each side can swing, or where there are arrow slots each side, but not a tighter point again like a doorway where all the opponents can be blocked from advancing and fought one or two at a time.

I developed the basis of these rules for 3x, and yeah, they were meant to make 3x easier to use with drawn maps, no grids, and sometimes just description.

Chokepoint is for doors, though there may be an equivalent zone feature for hallways (Soldiers' Fighting Retreat will work really well with polearms, hallways, and the rule by which AoOs stop movement). Basically it's a door people have to go through to get to the next zone.

QuoteThe multiple opponent rules look OK. Multiple damage rolls could be very slightly awkward in your system since each is a roll of 2 dice, if its the same as the base combat system ?

This is why weapon damage is converted to a single die per attack (and a bonus equal to the avg of the removed dice) for large groups. Did I forget to mention that?

Bloody Stupid Johnson · July 22, 2012, 09:21:00 AM

Quote from: beejazz;562742This is why weapon damage is converted to a single die per attack (and a bonus equal to the avg of the removed dice) for large groups. Did I forget to mention that?

Whoops - you did put that there, I missed skimming quickly. Mea culpa.