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Color as Rules

Started by Spike, August 03, 2007, 03:13:05 PM

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Abyssal Maw

Quote from: K BergAbyssmal,

how fitting.

I game.

I just don't write up the entire world before hand.

That is the difference, thank you for putting words in my mouth, it is very rewarding. Please continue.

OK! I do love an invitation.

You are mistaken about the amount of work being done here.

1) All games benefit from some form of prep. Even collaborative games where people are coming up with details, involve some form of continuity and record keeping. Such as the one-sheet in sorcerer. or the network in Verge. Or whatever else. Relationship maps. Snerk.

2) The "whole world" statting in this case involves a few rolls on a set of tables. It's all written down once, placed in a campaign folder or notebook or wiki, or whatever... and done before the game ever begins, and the goal is long term play, so you keep referring back to that one thing.
 
3) I don't actually stat the 'whole world' up. Actually I stat up resources and parameters. This is probably quite similar to Burning Empires, I imagine. But the point is- not that much work at all, really. Certainly less than a relationship map.

4) The secret weapon of traditional gaming: long term campaigns. So if there is work involved at all in prepping anything? the "Lazy GM" who wants to run "story-Games" will be doing prep work for each and every game over and over again, possibly every 3 sessions, or even every session. Some of what story-gamers do as part of the game (collaborative world building, etc), falls under prepwork for a normal gamer.

By contrast, Joe the GM does his work once, and is set for 6 months. He'll be done with it the week before the game starts.

It's clear to me that the write-once, read-many style is a lot less work than it is made out to be. Not only that, if we aren't changing games or systems every couple of sessions, nobody has to re-learn how to play.


To Judd: Universe is an out-of-print SPI game that was kinda based on Traveler. I'll send you a pdf if you like. I'm mainly interested in it for nostalgia purposes (as I am a fantasy guy at heart), but I think it illustrates what sci-fi gaming is about pretty well.
Download Secret Santicore! (10MB). I painted the cover :)

Paka

Quote from: Abyssal Maw4) The secret weapon of traditional gaming: long term campaigns. So if there is work involved at all in prepping anything? the "Lazy GM" who wants to run "story-Games" will be doing prep work for each and every game over and over again, possibly every 3 sessions, or even every session. Some of what story-gamers do as part of the game (collaborative world building, etc), falls under prepwork for a normal gamer.

By contrast, Joe the GM does his work once, and is set for 6 months. He'll be done with it the week before the game starts.

It's clear to me that the write-once, read-many style is a lot less work than it is made out to be. Not only that, if we aren't changing games or systems every couple of sessions, nobody has to re-learn how to play.


To Judd: Universe is an out-of-print SPI game that was kinda based on Traveler. I'll send you a pdf if you like. I'm mainly interested in it for nostalgia purposes (as I am a fantasy guy at heart), but I think it illustrates what sci-fi gaming is about pretty well.

Regarding Universe...gotcha.  I'll PM you for a pdf when I have a moment after Gen Con.  RIght now it'd just get lost in the shuffle.

Regarding long-term play.

There are plenty of indie RPG's that are built for short to medium length campaigns but if we're talkin' Burning Wheel here, that is game made for the long, long haul.  Honestly, I think that game is made to shine for a campaign that has lasted longer than the books have been out.

Other than that, I agree in thinking our gaming is probably more similiar than many would think.  I think we might take different roads to get there but that is what makes forums interesting.

If we all did things in the same manner, there'd be nothing much to say.

Settembrini

QuoteOther than that, I agree in thinking our gaming is probably more similiar than many would think. I think we might take different roads to get there but that is what makes forums interesting.

It´s not. Beliefs are a thing were I just stand up and go. It destroys everything worthwhile playing for me. At least the way they are treated in BE.

Or your asking for the purpose of the Vaylen-ship question: It doesn´t matter why I´m asking. Either there is an answer or there isn´t.

And in BE, there are no answers, it´s not even established how many planets there are in the respective empires. This makes meaningful strategy impossible.
I just don´t need to play this game.

Is it objectively bad?
No.

But it´s useless to me.

Colour as a concept destroys what I game for.

Now, to come full circle: I can see what colour/mechanics setups do for you. Accept that they are destructive to other stuff, stuff you might not be aware of.
If there can\'t be a TPK against the will of the players it\'s not an RPG.- Pierce Inverarity

Paka

Quote from: SettembriniNow, to come full circle: I can see what colour/mechanics setups do for you. Accept that they are destructive to other stuff, stuff you might not be aware of.

Different people like different things.

Okay.

Do not demand that I accept statements from you.  You've already stated that you are morally and intellectually superior to me; I'm wary of accepting shit from you.

Settembrini

*Shrug*

You came here to learn. Either you accept your lecture, or you don´t. I can lead the donkey to the water, but I cannot make him drink.

And actually, you already know one fun-style of playing. So only intellectual nosyness and rigour would push you to explore other styles.
Who am I to know if you bring up that inquisitiveness?
You showed some here.
But lazyness in ones spare-time is nothing to be ashamed of.

There is no need for you, so you might as well not do it, you are having fun already.
If there can\'t be a TPK against the will of the players it\'s not an RPG.- Pierce Inverarity

Paka

Quote from: Settembrini*Shrug*

You came here to learn. Either you accept your lecture, or you don´t. I can lead the donkey to the water, but I cannot make him drink.

And actually, you already know one fun-style of playing. So only intellectual nosyness and rigour would push you to explore other styles.
Who am I to know if you bring up that inquisitiveness?
You showed some here.
But lazyness in ones spare-time is nothing to be ashamed of.

There is no need for you, so you might as well not do it, you are having fun already.

Sett,

I'm not sure if you realize how condescending and lame this response is.  Maybe you don't care.  I didn't come here to be lectured.  I came here to talk about gaming.  Man, you don't make that easy.

I am not lazy.  My game-related efforts are in different areas than what you choose to put your efforts into.  This doesn't mean I'm lazy and you are hard working.

It means I work on X and you work on Y.

Gunslinger

This conversation is like listening to a blind man and a deaf man argue about what a radio is and does.  Both are lacking a perspective but they are both adamant they are right about what they are talking about.
 

Settembrini

Quote from: PakaI don't play this way because I'm lazy.
And that´s okay! It´s your hobby!

You spend effort for other stuff, fine!

But to learn other playstyles and systems, you must invest some time.
That´s a blanket statement.


BUT: If you don´t want to invest into learning about other playstyles, you are excluded from talking abou themt.
If there can\'t be a TPK against the will of the players it\'s not an RPG.- Pierce Inverarity

Settembrini

Quote from: GunslingerThis conversation is like listening to a blind man and a deaf man argue about what a radio is and does.  Both are lacking a perspective but they are both adamant they are right about what they are talking about.

I´m the blind man.
If there can\'t be a TPK against the will of the players it\'s not an RPG.- Pierce Inverarity

Abyssal Maw

Quote from: GunslingerThis conversation is like listening to a blind man and a deaf man argue about what a radio is...

Quote from: SettembriniI´m the blind man.

hahaa! The Prussian is too quick.
Download Secret Santicore! (10MB). I painted the cover :)

Paka

Quote from: SettembriniI´m the blind man.

Yeah, you see there's this invention called TV and its pretty cool.

droog

Hmmm. My experience goes as follows: while I have certainly played games in the sandbox manner, and indeed, have explored many alternative ways of producing 'objective' data when the rules failed me (I cite, for instance, several home-made maps dealing with resources and trade routes of Glorantha), it's not something I've got the time or interest for any more. Been there, done that, got the notes to prove it. I understand the appeal, but I don't share it--too much ad hoc judgement and an ultimately illusory goal.

I don't think playing with the word 'game' will get us very far--Wittgenstein already demonstrated that.
The past lives on in your front room
The poor still weak the rich still rule
History lives in the books at home
The books at home

Gang of Four
[/size]

James J Skach

Quote from: droogtoo much ad hoc judgement and an ultimately illusory goal.
This is interesting to me, and possibly points to a deeper difference then thought...

How does mechanically determining a world separate from the characters with it's own workings and own consistency have more ad hoc judgement and more illusory goal?
The rules are my slave, not my master. - Old Geezer

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droog

Quote from: James J SkachHow does mechanically determining a world separate from the characters with it's own workings and own consistency have more ad hoc judgement and more illusory goal?
Because ultimately, you can never determine things to that level. At some point you will have to go 'near enough is good enough'. Once at that point, further abstraction is just in degrees.
The past lives on in your front room
The poor still weak the rich still rule
History lives in the books at home
The books at home

Gang of Four
[/size]

James J Skach

Quote from: droogBecause ultimately, you can never determine things to that level. At some point you will have to go 'near enough is good enough'. Once at that point, further abstraction is just in degrees.
OK.  So my question is, if detailing-things-as-much-as-possible-then-ad-hoc-where-required is too much, how is starting with less detail, which, by your logic, will require at least as much ad hoc an improvement?

Please note, I'm not saying it's an objective improvement or that either one of us is saying one or the other is better.  I'm trying to follow the logic you are following, that's all...
The rules are my slave, not my master. - Old Geezer

The RPG Haven - Talking About RPGs