Quote from: Abyssal MawIs a slot machine a collaborative exercise?

It IS a game. It's just a completely random one.

Is being in a band a game? Because being in  a band is a collaborative exercise.

Why the dumb questions?

So, basically, I look at the character sheets, Beliefs for a Burning Empires example in order to generate situation and you guys look at the rolled-up model for the planet system.

Is this kind of system generator in the Little Black Box?  It intrigues me.  

Both are viable and both make a whole lot of sense to me.

Do you roll up the characters after you make the planet model or after?

By my play experience, it'd seem to make more sense to make the characters after the planets, so the players can tie their character concepts to  a situation that is apparent through the economic realities of the system but I haven't used this exact kind of thing before, so I'd be curious to hear your experience.

Paka,

I appreciate your open-ness. Somehow though, your questions seem displaced. I can´t put my finger on it, but they give the impression you somehow have a preconception that´s not correct.

To answer them:

It doesn´t matter what you roll up first. Because nobody knows where your character is from. And you don´t know where they game will play. The Referee might have made a sector of his own for you to game in.
Now, you could roll up your homeworld as a player, and MegaTraveller assumes you do. Which would be pretty awesome for most Referees if you even expanded upon your homeworld.
But ultimately it doesn´t matter.

Because the Wordl Creation rules are for creating the sandbox. Your character is for playing in it.

So, it´s totally dependent on the structure of your campaign. Maybe you play in a publshed sector, were all stellar, trade and planetary data are already provided.
Maybe you are exploring new space.

Most of the time, the Referee will make the choice, but a homeworld would be cool with most Refs. As it is cool if you engage in the other subsystems, like starship generation.
There´s nothing like dreaming up a starship and trying to get the money to actually build it. And that´s just the start!

You must know, Traveller doesn´t revolve on trade, or starships. That´s the foundation for immersion, to heighten the experience and adventure.
If you REALLY are down on your last pennies, because the mortgage on your ship must be paid (remember, the ship you constructed and spent your hard earned cahs from the first campaign on?), then it´s totally not "Colour". There´s payments, there´s your monthly earnings, there´s your adventures, there´s meaning to the situation.
Because it´s backed up by interlocking models and aspects of the game.

EDIT: Situation, maybe that´s the key. The Referee extrapolates the situation based upon  the models in the game, and external models he brings into the game. Stuff happens because it happens, and the PCs can react.
Situation is external and not tied to the PCs.
Situation oughta be interesting, elsewise one skips to the next system/planet whatever.

By reacting to the Situations the PCs become part of the universes happenings. they influence the models or are influenced by them. How this falls out in actualy play is hugely dependant on the Campaign framework. A special agent for the Imperium campaign will look totally different and use different models than a free trader or a mercenary campaign.

Just wanted to make a comment about colour in Burning Empires specifically - there are rules for how many dice rolls you can initiate in a session.  You need to use a Building scene for that.  If you want to introduce colour, you can use a Colour Scene.

I'm not sure what effect that has, but my gut tells me there's some importance there...

Quote from: Abyssal MawAnd the beauty of it all? The kind of gaming I am describing creates stories. Yes. Players develop an intense personal interest in their characters, and they get involved with guiding what happens and where their characters are going and what gets done.

That was a cool post, AM.  I don't think I've ever actually played a game like that, but it sounds like it would be fun.  

This is the "sandbox" type of game, right?

Characters come afterwards, generally. But keep in mind there's no "tailoring" to fit; Traveler (as well as Universe, as examples) are totally random.

But I also concede that both examples are perfectly workable.

In my Universe Campaign, I started out by building just one star system (5 planets), and then I built the one next to it in case anyone wanted to try and explore it. Each star system has it's own "character sheet" which lists the sun, what class star it is, (which effects the biosphere of life-sustaining planets), what orbit they are in, what resources are located where, all of that. There is something similar in Trav. I'm awaiting the Mongoose version, I guess.

Star system and planet generation in both systems is done by nested tables.

Quote from: LostSoulJust wanted to make a comment about colour in Burning Empires specifically - there are rules for how many dice rolls you can initiate in a session.  You need to use a Building scene for that.  If you want to introduce colour, you can use a Colour Scene.

I'm not sure what effect that has, but my gut tells me there's some importance there...



That was a cool post, AM.  I don't think I've ever actually played a game like that, but it sounds like it would be fun.  

This is the "sandbox" type of game, right?

Yes.

So, Sett, we've waded past the name-calling and the bullshit, let's talk games:

We're playing Traveller, how do you bind the players' characters together if the GM doesn't tell you where they will be playing?  Wouldn't this stuff be discussed?

Is it possible that because these kinds of things aren't in the rules themselves, lots of different groups do it differently and find their own grooves?

Quote from: SettembriniYou must know, Traveller doesn´t revolve on trade, or starships. That´s the foundation for immersion, to heighten the experience and adventure.
If you REALLY are down on your last pennies, because the mortgage on your ship must be paid (remember, the ship you constructed and spent your hard earned cahs from the first campaign on?), then it´s totally not "Colour". There´s payments, there´s your monthly earnings, there´s your adventures, there´s meaning to the situation.
Because it´s backed up by interlocking models and aspects of the game.

Burning Wheel, to use an example that I am comfortable with, has a Resources stat and every so often (the details are in the book) you have to make a cost of living check and pay rent or feed your vassals or get new parts for your starship or whatever it is.  

So, I'm thinking that BW takes a bunch of that kind of thing into account.  The economy and so on is injected into the game in a different a manner, a manner that doesn't force me, the GM, to come up with how many credits you have to pay to the Planetary Governor come tax-time  but you damned well better make your resources roll when tax-time comes around, or else you'll be scrambling for money and thus generating the money-inspired adventure that you were discussing above.

In Burning Games, its a Resources roll, the process is abstracted but still there, still relevant.

QuoteIn Burning Games, its a Resources roll, the process is abstracted but still there, still relevant.

No. At least not if it´s in any way like BE.
Or maybe it is, but´s so abstract that it becomes meaningless for the kind of experience I´m talking about.

There are no prices there are no GDPs. The ressources are only limited for your character, but not in the world.

How many Starships do the Vaylen produce per year?

Not answered, thusly starships become colour. They produce as much as is convenient. Which destroys all strategy. Thusly BE is so tightly focused and character centered, I can´t enjoy it.

EDIT: and instead of useless examples from thematic games, we you should concentrate on grokking Traveller. If you approach Traveller with a "Burned" mindset, you won´t get it. You will stand before it and just wonder what the heck to do with it. Let´s concentrate on your non-"burned" experiences.

Quote from: SettembriniHow many Starships do the Vaylen produce per year?

Not answered, thusly starships become colour. They produce as much as is convenient. Which destroys all strategy. Thusly BE is so tightly focused and character centered, I can´t enjoy it.

Let me see if I get this:

If the number of Vaylen starships is listed somewhere, then the players can make decisions based on this fact of the game world.  If somehow their characters find out this information, they can say, "If we want to destroy the Vaylen we'll have to make at least X number of starships."  Or any number of other things.

This is why you don't like to "ret-con" stuff, eh, Sett?

Quote from: SettembriniHow many Starships do the Vaylen produce per year?

Not answered, thusly starships become colour. They produce as much as is convenient. Which destroys all strategy. Thusly BE is so tightly focused and character centered, I can´t enjoy it.

You can't enjoy it.

*shrug*

Okay.

So, one of my BE players asks how many ships Vaylen can produce a year.  

Me:  What is your intent?  Why do you want to know?

Player:  I want to attack their economy while the Admiral's fleet attacks their orbital cruisers.

Me:  Awesome roll.  Obstacle 3.

*Rolls 3 Successes*

Me: You know that the Vaylen are using a nearby planet for production and the Merchant Corporation that deals with that planet shares resources with the company that you work for.

Player:  I want to get a meeting with the president of that company.

*Circles Roll*

And so it goes....

Quote from: SettembriniEDIT: and instead of useless examples from thematic games, we you should concentrate on grokking Traveller. If you approach Traveller with a "Burned" mindset, you won´t get it. You will stand before it and just wonder what the heck to do with it. Let´s concentrate on your non-"burned" experiences.

No, Sett, I am respecting your POV and how you do things so I will damned well get to say what works for me.

This is a thread about Color and you don't get to say when I talk and when I don't.  Your way is no more relevant or useful than mine.

There is no one way.  We are exchanging ideas here.  I listen to you and you listen to me.  It is called dialogue and this is how it works.

Quote from: Abyssal MawCharacters come afterwards, generally. But keep in mind there's no "tailoring" to fit; Traveler (as well as Universe, as examples) are totally random.

But I also concede that both examples are perfectly workable.

In my Universe Campaign, I started out by building just one star system (5 planets), and then I built the one next to it in case anyone wanted to try and explore it. Each star system has it's own "character sheet" which lists the sun, what class star it is, (which effects the biosphere of life-sustaining planets), what orbit they are in, what resources are located where, all of that. There is something similar in Trav. I'm awaiting the Mongoose version, I guess.

Star system and planet generation in both systems is done by nested tables.

Could you give me some cool examples from your games on how this worked?

Paka,

I'm curious. Without any reference to any specific game, do you understand the kind of play experience Sett's describing? Do you understand from where he derives his fun?

I get the sense that there is either a tremendous lack of communication or so much mutual animosity that talking past each other is all that's left.

Thanks,
Jim

Quote from: James J SkachPaka,

I'm curious. Without any reference to any specific game, do you understand the kind of play experience Sett's describing? Do you understand from where he derives his fun?

I get the sense that there is either a tremendous lack of communication or so much mutual animosity that talking past each other is all that's left.

Thanks,
Jim

James,

It is my belief and it is a belief that I'm more than willing to find out that I'm wrong about that we all might do things different ways and like different games but we'd tend to enjoy each other's games if we sat down to play 'em.

What interests me are the different techniques that people use to get there.

I'm not sure that successful sessions  are all that different from each other.  I do think that the language we use to describe them and the parts of the games we highlight are both vastly different.

That said, if you or Sett want me to know what you like about the techniques descibed above, please just come out and tell me.  Don't assume I know.  I'm not sure that I know what anyone other than me likes.

Quote from: PakaThat said, if you or Sett want me to know what you like about the techniques descibed above, please just come out and tell me.  Don't assume I know.  I'm not sure that I know what anyone other than me likes.

Eh, mine would be, unfortunately, woefully lacking at the moment.

I think Sett is trying.  Which is why I'm saying it might be a communication problem.

Quote from: James J SkachEh, mine would be, unfortunately, woefully lacking at the moment.

I think Sett is trying.  Which is why I'm saying it might be a communication problem.

James,

If you see communication breaking down and think I might be at fault or that there is something I could do better, drop me a PM and let me know.