Quote from: WarthurBecause for everyone who's had a bad "players running amok" experience, there's someone else who had a bad "asshat GM" experience?

Because, erm, there's already plenty of RPGs out there where the GM is the final arbiter? The Forge is all about producing independently-produced games, and there's little point in endlessly replicating what has gone before; they experiment with GMless or GM-light RPGs because that's what's experimental. If the world had been different, if most RPGs were GMless, the Forge would be pumping out GM-heavy games by the truckload.

So then you are agreeing that the Forge DOES have an agenda, and that agenda involves promoting GM-disempowering gaming?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditSo then you are agreeing that the Forge DOES have an agenda, and that agenda involves promoting GM-disempowering gaming?

Only to the extent that GM-disempowered gaming is a radical new approach to the hobby, sufficiently so that while mainstream game companies may be reluctant to gamble on a GM-less/GM-lite game an indie publisher can afford to do so.

They are there to write games and publish them, dude, and they are there to experiment with innovative designs. You're acting like they are even trying to topple D&D, which is so not the case it's untrue. (The Forge dislikes the World of Darkness much more than it does D&D, mainly because the World of Darkness games have a bad history of promising one thing and delivering the other.)

Quote from: WarthurBecause, erm, there's already plenty of RPGs out there where the GM is the final arbiter? The Forge is all about producing independently-produced games, and there's little point in endlessly replicating what has gone before

Why are you saying that making traditional RPGs is "endlessly replicating what hsa gone?" There's a lot of room left for doing interesting things without endlessly replicating anything. I don't personally innovate, but other designers I hold in high esteem do, within the confines of a traditional form. Are you claiming that they are not doing anything innovative? That it is no longer possible to do anything interesting or innovative in the traditional form?

Sounds to me like you are just trash-talking.

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceWhy are you saying that making traditional RPGs is "endlessly replicating what hsa gone?" There's a lot of room left for doing interesting things without endlessly replicating anything. I don't personally innovate, but other designers I hold in high esteem do, within the confines of a traditional form. Are you claiming that they are not doing anything innovative? That it is no longer possible to do anything interesting or innovative in the traditional form?

No, but if you have a game which is a) designed in the traditional form, and b) good and interesting and innovative and fun, I see less reason not to submit it to a mainstream publisher. On the other hand, if your game is highly non-traditional mainstream publishers will be less likely to publish it, simply because publishing a game in the quantities that the mainstream publishers do is a heftier financial risk.

In pretty much every form of entertainment out there, mainstream publishers TEND TO throw stuff out in the traditional form, while independent publishers TEND TO thrive on experimentation. There's exceptions, of course, but that tends to be the rule.

Besides, I am just talking about the attitude the Forge tends to express, and nobody can deny that the Forge tend to get excited about experimental RPGs that push the boundaries. They can talk about designing more traditional games in plenty of other places, after all.

Warthur, you're misrepresenting The Forge's schizophrenia. Ron Edwards has said a number of times that wants to bring "traditional game designers" on board, basically as part of his crusade against the abuses of the three tier distribution system. Unfortunately this conflicts with his other crusade, which is to promote "coherent" design--a contentious concept that not all designers accept (in fact, few outside of self-identified Narrativists).

I understand your point, but the way you originally expressed it is unnecessarily insulting, and evoked mindless automatons shovelling crap into boxes. Even the larger RPG publishers, like Steve Jackson Games or Green Ronin, are tiny, miniscule enterprises - they'd BE indie in any other business. Outside of WotC and possibly WW, they are all indies. Heck, Palladium even fits the Forge definition of "indie." Are they to be included?

-clash

Quote from: Elliot WilenWarthur, you're misrepresenting The Forge's schizophrenia. Ron Edwards has said a number of times that wants to bring "traditional game designers" on board, basically as part of his crusade against the abuses of the three tier distribution system. Unfortunately this conflicts with his other crusade, which is to promote "coherent" design--a contentious concept that not all designers accept (in fact, few outside of self-identified Narrativists).

I don't hold Ron Edwards' stranger ideas against the rest of the Forge any more than I hold the Pundit's odder concepts against people here.

Quote from: WarthurBesides, I am just talking about the attitude the Forge tends to express, and nobody can deny that the Forge tend to get excited about experimental RPGs that push the boundaries. They can talk about designing more traditional games in plenty of other places, after all.

Where?  

My first stop was the Forge, and since then I've been unable to find a place to discuss traditional games that wasn't dominated by Forge Diaspora trying to promote Forge-Brand theories.  If you don't want to talk about designing GNS/Forge games, and you don't want to talk about D&D/D20... where do you go?

I'm really serious.  

Quote from: flyingmiceI understand your point, but the way you originally expressed it is unnecessarily insulting, and evoked mindless automatons shovelling crap into boxes.

Er, how so?

QuoteEven the larger RPG publishers, like Steve Jackson Games or Green Ronin, are tiny, miniscule enterprises - they'd BE indie in any other business. Outside of WotC and possibly WW, they are all indies. Heck, Palladium even fits the Forge definition of "indie." Are they to be included?

There's a major difference in scale between the "indie" publishers - or the Niche Press, if you'd prefer it - and the likes of Green Ronin and SJG.

Specifically, the major publishers can rely on getting anything they publish stocked in most Friendly Local Game Shops, and most of what they publish stocked in just about all FLGSs. The Forge crowd can't - they get most of their sales via the internet, and a pretty slim share of the internet trade at that.

Quote from: StuartWhere?  

My first stop was the Forge, and since then I've been unable to find a place to discuss traditional games that wasn't dominated by Forge Diaspora trying to promote Forge-Brand theories.  If you don't want to talk about designing GNS/Forge games, and you don't want to talk about D&D/D20... where do you go?

I'm really serious.  

In theory? Here.
But you have to make it so. Know that here, the Forge swine won't have any advantage. They will not be allowed to use moderation against you, or use language against you.

But as for the rest, its up to you. Start your topics, and defend the topics from subversion by demanding that they not get diverted into Forgese.

RPGPundit

Quote from: WarthurEr, how so?

The "endlessly replicating what has gone before" bit.  

Quote from: WarthurThere's a major difference in scale between the "indie" publishers - or the Niche Press, if you'd prefer it - and the likes of Green Ronin and SJG.

Sure there's a difference in scale, but in many - if not most - cases, there is no difference in kind. Creator owned - isn't that the definition of Indie?

-clash

Quote from: Elliot WilenWarthur, you're misrepresenting The Forge's schizophrenia. Ron Edwards has said a number of times that wants to bring "traditional game designers" on board, basically as part of his crusade against the abuses of the three tier distribution system. Unfortunately this conflicts with his other crusade, which is to promote "coherent" design--a contentious concept that not all designers accept (in fact, few outside of self-identified Narrativists).

I had not heard this - all you ever hear out of the Forge is GNS/Big Model stuff.  Breaking the distribution model would be the best thing to happen to gaming since Pat Pulling.  This is a noble cause, and it's too bad his game design ideas are getting in the way of that.