Just an idea I've been pondering. Very unformed as yet. Instead of every character getting one class at first level:
*Give characters a number of points at first level
*Make different classes cost different numbers of points.
 
So in this system you wouldn't balance classes equally; a class gets whatever abilities are deemed appropriate then gets a cost, so Merchant is cheaper than Noble is cheaper than Wizard (or whatever). A multi-classed character would be one that purchased two classes, which is going to be easier if both classes are crummy ones...sort of how its easier to be an Arts/Law graduate than Medicine/Engineering.
 
I'm not sure if the point budget would be fixed, or based off ability scores, or if classes would just be bought using skill ranks so that surplus points are spent on 'general' skills.

If you're after balancing this, one question: any reduced prices for similar archetypes? If there's overlap between mage and scholar, does that reduce the cost of one or the other?

Probably easier just to give bonuses to overlapping skills. The points could also be age based, with further bonuses for time spent in that class, balancing out against age related penalties. Say +1 on each skill in a class per 3 years over the age of 15 spent in it, to a maximum bonus of +3. Or the player could select skills to specialise in rather than a blanket bonus.

Quote from: beejazz;603071If you're after balancing this, one question: any reduced prices for similar archetypes? If there's overlap between mage and scholar, does that reduce the cost of one or the other?

That's a pretty neat idea..quite possibly yeah. Having overlapping skills as The Traveller said would be another way to balance it. Or, the system could prevent overlap by letting the character take extra general skills instead of a skill that would have been duplicated.
 
Other things I was considering might be:
*giving elves, dwarves, etc. more points (balanced with a tradeoff in some other area), so that they are more often multi-classed. I suppose age-based points would do that too.
 
*having some classes perhaps be straight upgrades, so you can take a "prestige class" by paying the points difference.
 

Quote from: The Traveller;603073Probably easier just to give bonuses to overlapping skills. The points could also be age based, with further bonuses for time spent in that class, balancing out against age related penalties. Say +1 on each skill in a class per 3 years over the age of 15 spent in it, to a maximum bonus of +3. Or the player could select skills to specialise in rather than a blanket bonus.

I don't really like age-based systems as a personal thing, though it could work. Blanket bonus may run into issues with the classes not being balanced too (10 years as a wizard vs. 10 years as a peasant); I was thinking to going with blanket advancement, with classes having variable "level up" costs, although it could get messy.
 
Anyway thanks for the help guys!

If you're including age as a cost for certain classes (magic ones especially) then lengthening the life of demihumans may be a fun and unique way to encourage elfish magic users and such. Their long lifespans would offset the penalty associated with the class.

eep thread mutation...

Could be interesting I guess. World of Synnibarr theoretically has something like that but perhaps the other way around...characters are supposed to add together training times of all their skills to calculate their starting age, although I don't think there's an ill effects from age system.

I'm also vaguely reminded of Ars Magica: it has a game structure that assumes a lot of gaps/downtime between adventures for training and research. Not sure if it has demihumans exactly - there might well be a Merit that gives a character nonhuman blood that may extend time between rolls for Decrepitude.  

I think a system where power is keyed to age perhaps needs to assume a lot of down time between adventures; I'm more used to games where the characters get from 1st to 20th in about a year of game time but if you need X years of training to become a wizard that's not going to work.
Having ageing as a game mechanic runs into some interesting balancing issues too since being "Immortal" becomes awesome instead of being just flavour text.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;603299I think a system where power is keyed to age perhaps needs to assume a lot of down time between adventures; I'm more used to games where the characters get from 1st to 20th in about a year of game time but if you need X years of training to become a wizard that's not going to work.
Having ageing as a game mechanic runs into some interesting balancing issues too since being "Immortal" becomes awesome instead of being just flavour text.

I'm talking more about starting age than continuous aging (though aging magic can bring that back in).

So let's say that a wizard rolls 2d10 X4 for his starting age. He'll average 40 but could start as high as 80. And for a human, there'll be penalties (let's say weaker saves against illness, lower strength, whatever's appropriate in system). Elves would roll the same starting age but at 50 they'd be as healthy as if they were in their late teens.

Using starting age as something similar to a points cost, or in parallel to a points cost, in a multiclass system is sort of related right?

Really weird idea: Penalize xp (or xp multiplier or whatever you have) for higher age categories. A person could be two high-age careers, but would advance more slowly. Sure, this would work a lot like older edition multiclassing, but it has some added in-world logic.

Starting age as points works I guess. Two ways you could go?

*determine a starting age. Say 'apprenticeship' age is about 12, and additional years can be spent to buy classes; 10 years for wizard, 4 for craftsman, 3 for barbarian, or something. You could buy multiple classes, or multiple terms in one class for greater skills.
Nonhumans would probably have higher 'apprenticeship' ages as they mature a bit more slowly, but also higher starting age.
 
Or...

*determine what classes you want, then roll ageing dice for each profession, with magic using classes getting worse dice (+d4 for thief, +d6 for warrior, +2d10 for wizard, perhaps ?). This wouldn't be much different to how D&D works except you probably want multi-class age costs to be cumulative, and you'd add stat penalties for ageing starting quite early (30 say? I believe 45 was considered pretty old in the dark ages).

I don't like xp penalties so much... Systems where high skills are harder to improve (e.g. Runequest) could help balance higher ages though.

I was thinking on this...

From a HERO System PoV what this concept comes down to is templates and packages. A HERO GM could design all the desired 'Classes' and then say divide the cost by 10 and round to the nearest- and offer them to the players for together with a point budget suited for the divided costs.

In addition to classic things like classes, you can also offer attribute packages- like "normal Joe", "Athlete" or "Old Man" which focus on stats.

Thus everyone would buy at least one attribute pack and at least one Class pack. So you'd get things like a player buying "Old Man" for cheap (i.e. low stats), thus saving points for buying "Wizard"...

In fact now that I think about it, one could use HERO to do the ground work for other game design.

Look at Rolemaster/MERP and Warhammer both fantasy and 40K for inspiration because they do exactly what you're envisioning except for classic multiclassing which isn't really needed for different reasons depending on which system is being used.

the standard apporach to this is to have different class components and allow the GM (opr sometimes players) to construct classes from the class components. Fights like a warrior but can't wear armour and can cast a few spells, cool we'll call him a Battlemage. Can do a lof of non combat thief stuff and has some charm magic sure we will call him a Mountebank.

My heartbreaker has 3 classes , rogue, warrior, caster, but many many archetypes or sub-classes which the GM creates from a tool specific to their settign which are a blend of the three elemts (whcih represent skills, combat and magic respectively).

So in theory all class-archetypes are blanced.

Quote from: gleichman;603318I was thinking on this...

From a HERO System PoV what this concept comes down to is templates and packages. A HERO GM could design all the desired 'Classes' and then say divide the cost by 10 and round to the nearest- and offer them to the players for together with a point budget suited for the divided costs.

In addition to classic things like classes, you can also offer attribute packages- like "normal Joe", "Athlete" or "Old Man" which focus on stats.

Thus everyone would buy at least one attribute pack and at least one Class pack. So you'd get things like a player buying "Old Man" for cheap (i.e. low stats), thus saving points for buying "Wizard"...

In fact now that I think about it, one could use HERO to do the ground work for other game design.

Hmm HERO could work for that. Perhaps the question is how useful the final point costings are; they could be expected to stop working if the assumptions of the game and other rules based on that in the design are radically revised, but it would be a starting point, and a good one for an essentially HERO-based system I would imagine.

Spending attribute points to buy skill points and flavouring it as being old would work in most cases, and be more straightforward. It doesn't readily duplicate the older demihumans getting extra skill points for free, though, without more tomfoolery  - I'm not quite sure how to do it in HERO system.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;603430It doesn't readily duplicate the older demihumans getting extra skill points for free, though, without more tomfoolery  - I'm not quite sure how to do it in HERO system.

You could make the racial packages free to the demihumans. In HERO terms those are typically worth a fair number of points- nightvision (or better), Long Life spans, and certain stats being higher. One could also toss in racial abilities like Dwarves getting OCV bonus vs. Orcs, or Elves getting Bow Skill levels if you think things like that are a racial characteristic.


What it doesn't do is solve multi-classing for you. However what might is a lower cost version of each class with more limited abilities (thus representing from a different direction the demi-human level cap limits in D&D), and having those open only to demi-humans.

Quote from: gleichman;603432You could make the racial packages free to the demihumans. In HERO terms those are typically worth a fair number of points- nightvision (or better), Long Life spans, and certain stats being higher. One could also toss in racial abilities like Dwarves getting OCV bonus vs. Orcs, or Elves getting Bow Skill levels if you think things like that are a racial characteristic.


What it doesn't do is solve multi-classing for you. However what might is a lower cost version of each class with more limited abilities (thus representing from a different direction the demi-human level cap limits in D&D), and having those open only to demi-humans.

On a similar theme check out - http://www.mindspring.com/~ernestm/classless/

Which is a much better implementation of the Skills and powers idea form 2e+ (that was dreadfully put togehter by TSR)

Quote from: jibbajibba;603434On a similar theme check out - http://www.mindspring.com/~ernestm/classless/

Which is a much better implementation of the Skills and powers idea form 2e+ (that was dreadfully put togehter by TSR)

Converting D&D to a point system usually does highlight the unfairness of demihumans vs. humans - all the racial abilities, and then extra classes on top.  2E skills and powers was bad in that you could see how much stuff the elves got that the half-elves didn't in actual point terms. Same with many of the classes. And multi-class characters just got double points.

(addressed more at Gleichman) - Building the races playing up the disadvantages could work (starting with HERO say) although difficult to duplicate some features of D&D meant to give balance - racial stat requirements like elves needing 8+ Cha, or experience costs for multiclassing perhaps.