Most psychopaths have tons of redeeming features. They can be caring parents and spouses, good friends, and considerate neighbours. In other words, they can be loyal members of a PC party that work towards goals of the greater good even. You may just not want to leave them alone with any captured enemies.

As far as I understand it, if they're true psychopaths (ya know, like 40 points on the Hare checklist, the real deal, worst of the worst), those things aren't really redeeming features, just them playing it smart. Enlightened self-interest. The long game. "Loved ones" are just items of equipment to them.

Of course, IANAP.

Quote from: Omnifray;617341As far as I understand it, if they're true psychopaths (ya know, like 40 points on the Hare checklist, the real deal, worst of the worst), those things aren't really redeeming features, just them playing it smart. Enlightened self-interest. The long game. "Loved ones" are just items of equipment to them.

Of course, IANAP.

well, traditionally a psychopath is assumed to view people as means to and ends rather than valuing them as themselves. But its entirely possible for a psychopath to construct their own system of morality and live by it, they are simply motivated by something besides empathy and without the support of a conscious to make them feel bad about hurting others, emotionally or physically. In modern society the motivation would simply be the capacity to live and succeed within society. In medieval terms, one of the worste punishments that a person could suffer was being branded an outlaw, or outside the laws and protections of society. A smart psychopath would quickly realize the benefits of being a member of a community, and endeavour to acclimate themselves to social norms. I could definitely see how a life of an adventurer, someone separate from but still valued by society would appeal to that sort of character.

Seems like a reasonable idea for a hobby game you could play for one offs.
I suspect there wouldn't be a lot of longevity in it becuase any game in which you restrict PCs character choices to a narrow niche within a genre tends to run out of steam quite fast.

I would try to court rather than avoid controversy though make the PCs all minions of the Abrahamic devil and write the rule book from their perspective, ie with the idea that their actions are just and honourable. Measure sucess by their ability to gather souls from mankind.
You obviously need to have the GM sections written more objectively but he PCs should exist in an environment where they seems to have no other option but to do evil and in that there is no need to look to redeeming features.

For inspiration you can look to "I Lucifer" by Glen Duncan and Mike Carey's Lucifer comic book series by Vertigo. Now both of these have a very sympathic Lucifer character in Carey's stuff Lucifer is hard to even define as evil.
Also for the right mind set read the wasp factory by Iain Bankes. Its written from the perspective of a psychopath who very nicely justifies all of their actions.

Quote from: jibbajibba;617398Also for the right mind set read the wasp factory by Iain Bankes. Its written from the perspective of a psychopath who very nicely justifies all of their actions.

In that vein, I'd also recommend The Collector. Which, incidentally, was one of the main inspiration for the second storyarc in Gaiman's Sandman series.

Check out these RPGs:

Kult

In Nomine Satanis/ Magna Veritas

In Nomine (Steve Jackson Games port)

Children of Fire

Heaven & Hell

D&D Planescape

Naturally, outside of Imp, all of these will be far more... adult? dangerous?... than what you're asking. Sounds like you want Chaotic Evil with a nice side of Toon, or safety padding. Cool. More power to you, and best of luck on your creation.

I can play any of the above (and alter others) to get a similar feel. Y'know, run chaotic evil with enough cream and sugar to make the bitterness go down. But I usually like to run my evil campaigns straight black. So perhaps shoot for a happier, lighter market? A market more in tune with short campaigns and one-shots, one where the obscene stays off-scene?

Quote from: Opaopajr;617499Check out these RPGs:

Kult

In Nomine Satanis/ Magna Veritas

In Nomine (Steve Jackson Games port)

Children of Fire

Heaven & Hell

D&D Planescape

Thanks, yes I’ve played Kult, and ever since I played it I’ve bored everybody stupid with my opinion that it beats any other game hands down for creepy horrorfulness. Interestingly a Swedish friend of mine told me that Kult excited just the sort of moral panic that I’m worried about, with questions being raised in Parliament. Apparently the guys behind it were/are actual cultists. In Nomine got mentioned on another forum, I’ll check that out and the others too. All of which proves this point:

Quote from: Doctor Jest;617135it's not untrodden ground. Seeing what others have done in the arena is probably a good thing when designing something.

Although unfortunately very little is untrodden ground now. As someone in Hollywood once said, there are only seven stories. Trick is to add a twist, like an innovative system.

Quote from: Opaopajr;617499Sounds like you want Chaotic Evil with a nice side of Toon, or safety padding. Cool. More power to you, and best of luck on your creation.

No, I’m happy with black and bitter, but as I said earlier I don’t Moms Against Blah on my ass this early in my career. On the other hand I suppose sales would probably go up, so… let’s do it! Mwa-ha-ha-ha…!

Quote from: Opaopajr;617499So perhaps shoot for a happier, lighter market? A market more in tune with short campaigns and one-shots, one where the obscene stays off-scene?

Well, of the two games I’ve got in the works (see my sig) one is more suitable for one-shots, the other for either one-shots or short campaigns, my general taste being for action packed oncers, but… why not shoot for a campaign-length game? And why not make it not simply comic demonic shenanigans but a game exploring good and evil in humanity a la the other games cited? One starting point I think could be the demons, having taken human form, find the humanity gradually breaking through and themselves constrained by their human vehicles’ good rather than their own evil. I just might get that past a church youth group he he.

I still want to make the comic version because sideswipe at life is where I’m coming from as a person and as a roleplayer, but I could make it partly modular, in that in the book there would be a black version (Game A) and one with cream and sugar (Game B). Of course it’s unlikely I’ll ever publish it with its current title as I’d never get it past Wotbro With Sharp-suited Lawyers, never mind Moms Against Blah. Heigh ho.

Anyway, the idea seems to have a few more legs than I’d previously thought, so watch this space for further developments. And a system, dammit!

Finally:

Quote from: Omnifray;617266And Leo, c'mon - Italian wine? You surely realise that nothing goes better with liver and fava beans than Australian Shiraz. This is what I mean about the subtlety of my position having been missed...

Ah ok. Actually, I'd be happy with beer.

Have you checked out Little Fears?

If you play it backwards -- being one of the (imp?) minions of nightmarish childhood fears, instead of the children who confront them -- it might do what you are thinking about.

And for your added twist, where human capacity for evil finds its limit from corporeal bonds, it can take a bit of Changeling: the Lost. That way imps serving the Fears (the 7 Deadly Sins) are actually kidnapped souls of children who found they enjoy the world of malice, and returned embodied to a world that no longer makes sense to them. Now they want revenge and a way to break the bodily barriers of virtue in this corporeal world.

Throw in a bit of Dragonraid in reverse (first Christian RPG, where conflict is resolved through Christian virtues and mysteries) and I think you've got what your looking for -- plus children. That way the corrupted re-embodied children souls are trying to amorally resolve their conflicts through the Seven Deadly Sins, particularly against their fetch, duped families, and terrestrial world itself.

I think I just spontaneously created the most evil RPG setting ever... I'm a bit shocked and left numb on how I feel about that. I'm thinking it needs to use the Venial Sins, otherwise people will go blind from the sheer concentrated chaotic evil.

Here's some extra Catholic Church Deadly (mortal) Sins than the prime 7.

Grave Matter
The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) defines these sins as grave matter:[20]

(This is not necessarily all of the possible grave matters.)
Abortion (any formal cooperation in it)
Acceptance by human society of murderous famines without trying to fix it
Adulation of another's grave faults if it makes one an accomplice in another's vices or grave sins, but it is not grave when it only seeks to be agreeable, to avoid evil, to meet a need, or to obtain legitimate advantages.
Adultery
Blasphemy
Defrauding a worker of his wages
Deliberate failure to go to mass on Holy Days of Obligation unless excused for a serious reason or dispensed by one's own pastor[21]
Divination, magic, and sorcery
Divorce (If civil divorce, which cannot do anything to the spiritual marriage in the eyes of God, remains the only possible way of ensuring certain legal rights, the protection of inheritance, or the care of the children it is not a sin.)[22]
Drug Abuse
Endangering their own and others' safety by drunkenness or a love of speed on the road, at sea or in the air
Envy (if to the level of wishing grave harm to another)
Euthanasia
Extreme Anger (at the level of truly and deliberately desiring to seriously hurt or kill someone)
Fornication
Hatred of a neighbor/to deliberately desire him or her great harm
Homosexual acts
Incest
Lying (the gravity is measured by "the truth it deforms, the circumstances, the intentions of the one who lies, and the harm suffered by its victims"[23] )
Murder (except when done in self-defense or defense of others when there is no other way)
Perjury and False Oaths
Polygamy
Pornography
Prostitution
Rape
Refusing or withholding a just wage
Rich nation's refusal to aid those which are unable to ensure the means of their development by themselves
Sacrilege
Scandal (deliberately causing someone to sin gravely)
Suicide
Terrorism that threatens, wounds and kills indiscriminately
Unfair wagers and cheating at games unless the damage is unusually light


And here's Venial Sins definition:

A venial sin meets at least one of the following criteria:
It does not concern a "grave matter",
It is not committed with full knowledge, or
It is not committed with both deliberate and complete consent.


That way you can make it for a lighter game. Just a pinch of sugar, evil children souls with extreme anger, sacrilege, and cheating at serious games might be more palatable to delicate tastes. But that's really up to you.

Is Usury no longer on that list?

Quote from: TristramEvans;619929Is Usury no longer on that list?

It's likely been reworded to "Unfair wagers." A loan isn't a gift after all.

Quote from: Opaopajr;619932It's likely been reworded to "Unfair wagers." A loan isn't a gift after all.

Well, once upon a time, charging interest on a loan was outlawed by the Catholic church. That was one of those rules I've always thought was a REALLY good idea.

I completely agree, and it wasn't the only religion to find interest/usury a sin. Historically the spiritual -- and secular! -- onus was usually placed on the loaner not the borrower. Defaulting on debt was considered inherent in the risk of loaning money.

I think I recommended the book "Debt: the first 5000 years" here before. It's enlightening! There's also interviews with the author out there. Check CSPAN Book TV or something (god, I love Book TV! I'm such a nerd!).

@Opaopajr (I):

Quote from: Opaopajr;619924If you play it backwards--

You mean, like those heavy metal singles form the 70s which, when you played them backwards, had the lyrics ‘Hey Satan, I’m going to the grocery store, need anything?’

Quote from: Opaopajr;619924I think I just spontaneously created the most evil RPG setting ever... I'm a bit shocked and left numb on how I feel about that. I'm thinking it needs to use the Venial Sins, otherwise people will go blind from the sheer concentrated chaotic evil.

That does look like some pretty chaotic evil!

@Opaopajr (II):
Whoa! Dude, that’s some list. Or is it a personal bucket list?! Interesting that Blasphemy and Homosexuality sit alongside Defrauding a worker of his wages in the modern sin index. If the Catholic Church concentrated less on the former and more on the latter, like they do in Central and South America, they might not have such a bad rep. (Blimey, hope Moms Against Blah aren’t reading this).

Thanks for the suggestions anyway. I’ll heard of Little Fears, will check it and the others out, but not just yet- I’m putting work on this and other medium-term projects on hold for a bit while I deal with some pressing RL stuff.  

Quote from: TristramEvans;619937Well, once upon a time, charging interest on a loan was outlawed by the Catholic Church. That was one of those rules I've always thought was a REALLY good idea.

Yeah, sounds good. Trouble is, it wouldn’t work in practice, (a) because you need investment to develop, and you can’t have investment without debt, and (b), if you outlaw something useful and/or necessary, like money-lending or drug-dealing, some non-mainstream ethnic group or social stratum would be deputised to engage in it and then be heavily stigmatised for doing so, like the Jews in Mediaeval Europe, or the Dalits in India.

Quote from: catty_big;620014Yeah, sounds good. Trouble is, it wouldn't work in practice, (a) because you need investment to develop, and you can't have investment without debt, and (b), if you outlaw something useful and/or necessary, like money-lending or drug-dealing, some non-mainstream ethnic group or social stratum would be deputised to engage in it and then be heavily stigmatised for doing so, like the Jews in Mediaeval Europe, or the Dalits in India.

Only if one were accept a debt-based economy as the best way to conduct commerce in society. I don't follow that viewpoint myself, personally. I still see money in general as a giant game of make-pretend that every adult in the world has been suckered into playing.