TheRPGSite

Hey, I lurk in this forum sometimes, and I just got this idea...

Well first off, im sick of magic. Its the only game for serious grown ups, with the other popular card games i would consider flavored for kids. (pokemon, and what not) the wow card game is decent, but it's kind of lacking.

So im apt to make my own. It makes sense. Easy to produce (Hey I work at a print shop) I can cut and box and produce the entire product free (relitivly speaking) of costs. And I can do alot of the design work, too so bonus, right?

Anyways, so here I am thinking of card games and the only thing that can soak into my thick skull is magic, and how it feels to be a really great game and almost perfect in a sense.  But then it hits me. You can't play magic by your self (Well you can, you get funny looks, and it feels... uh kinda lame) and it occured to me that, modern day playing cards are being used still today, and they are both great for socal interaction, as well as playing a game by your self!

Then, another idea sideswiped me, and that was to intergrate a rpg formula into the card game for a really unique and creative card game that I hope could grow into something monsterous! Sounds cool huh? Well. here is were the monkey hits the fan, as now, Im having some serious issues with ideas on mechanics, and how to interact them on the three key levels:
#1 Actuall card mechanic game play
#2 Solo card game play
#3 RPG card game play and mechanics
Im trying to merge them like locutus of borg into one big enitiy and seriously im having trouble now! =( oh well thats why I come to the wounderfull boards here that are very helpfull in this sort of thing.

So, I will give you what I have thought of:
#1 The symbols on the cards will be linked to classic DND elemental aspects for the game mechanics. Ie, positive, negitive, air, fire, earth,water,smoke,ooze, magma,ice. Lightning and dust and the negative positve elemental traits will be an expansion.
#2 Ive named the game CosmoS becuase its sort of like opening up your own universe and creating it with beings that you can use to fight evil/good with.
#3 for the rpg aspect you have hero cards and the gm can lay out a dungeon or obsiticles sort of like wow does with its dungons
#4 Mechanics, im still working on this, but id like for the players to be able to remove cards from their hands into their graveyard or from the game to be able to summon something. (how often do you get mana screwed in magic..right?) this solves that problem, and leaves the amount of cards in your hands a critical aspect of the game (as well as how many you draw ect)
optionally id like the lands or whatever ill call them to be able to multiply or be generally better in the long run than throwing away your cards for a quick effect. in the end it will be all about strategy which i think is going to be very improtant.
That's it so far, so i humbily come to the forums, to get every ones take on this, and what if any they would like to see mechanic wise in a card game?
Any ideas at all will be tremendously helpfull!
thanks!

BTW I do have some concept art...

(http://www.freewebs.com/keyofsolomon/box.jpg) the box
(http://www.freewebs.com/keyofsolomon/booster.jpg) the booster
(http://www.freewebs.com/keyofsolomon/cardbacker.jpg) the back of the cards
(http://www.freewebs.com/keyofsolomon/interiormock.jpg) a mock up of interior placement

I can't speak with any sort of authority on your concept or mechanics, but I would like to applaud your artwork, which looks quite professional, with one exception: no more Difference Clouds. I know, I know, I'm a cheater, too, but if you're going to cheat, you've got to hide it better.

Lol :D :D

Yeah, like i said concept art, not "real" art per say. Ive been doing lots of photoshop work and playing around with tutorials and what not, hehe, so a seasoned photoshoper is going to catch me every time :P
When I get the rules down however, ill have about 6-700 to spend on actual art made by professionals =D

there was an earlier thread that threw arround some ideas on this topic and the ways you could hybrid RPG and CCG. Not quite what you are doing but has similar aspects.

There were a couple of ideas

• DM decks and player decks
• Building a character using a mix of feat, stat, and equipment cards
• the DM deck lays out a dungeon as the players explore

I have created a few CCGs for home use (as 90% of the artwork is pinched) and have found it very entertaining but the problem in the design for me at least was that there is a tipping point at which it becomes obvious which player is going to win but the game is still a 1/3 of the way from actual completion. The whole process taught me that Magic is one of the best designed games I have ever seen and that mistakes in CCG design are far far more exploitable that mistakes in RPG design.

Hmm ill have to hunt for that thread, sounds like that previous poster has some of the same ideas as I do.

Also, jib as a CCG designer what can you tell me about design that I should be aware of when it comes to this meduim, andthing in particular I should be looking out to do or not do? Id like to hear what has worked and what hasnt worked as far as mechanics go. Thanks! :D

I think this is the thread.

http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9343

and in particuallar this seems to be what i might be looking for!
http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=184871&postcount=10

hmm ill have to meditate on this one.

Calling me a CCG designer is a bit of a stretch but ...

I would

• Avoid effects that stay on the table for x many rounds - they should be permanent or instant. Not doing this means you end up with loads of cards with little dice and counters on and the bookkeeping is a pig
• Try to avoid the 'one mistake and you're fucked convention' we hit this a few times with single events that could end your game as the result of one tactical error. Rule of thumb no single error should be so great that you can not recover from it.
• There is no reason all your cards have to come from one deck. This is really the only fault with Magic. You need so many lands in a deck to avoid getting mana screwed but after you lay 5 or 6 any more you pick up are dead cards. I tend to have a resource deck and an action deck. The resource deck has stuff in it, locations, equipment, allies etc. The action deck has powers, events, action modifiers, combat cards etc .. You can draw from either deck when you draw a card so you don't get stuck with a hand full of equipment when you need to draw action modifiers.
• Card renewal. - Replace as you play works better for complex games. Simple games can use replace 1 per round. Magic is simple and replace one card a round is the perfect mechanic for it. Jyhad (aka VTES) uses replace as you go. This means you can create complex card combos in combat situations which you can not do in magic.
• If you have characters, be they heroes or monsters or whatever try to limit the amount of stuff you have to track for them. So for instance wounds/hitpoints. Unless a card represents a key thing in your game like a party member just have a live and dead status and don't try to track wounds (maybe live/wounded/dead might work) tracking hits is too much bookkeeping and you end up with a lot of cards on the table covered in little counters or dice (see point 1 above). This is very true if you do things like spell points or variable stats or wands with charges etc etc .
• Be aware of the maths. This seems like an odd comment but the maths in CCGs is often geometric (or even exponentional) which no one expects. So if your hero can summon an ally who can summon an ally. The number of allies doesn't go 1, 2, 3, 4, it goes 1, 3, 7, 15 . This might be why Magic introduced the 4 of any one card rule because in Playtesting a deck with 15 mountains and 45 lightning bolts would win every game.
• Work on making each card special. Too many magic cards get dumped because oh its another 2/2 creature. Try and give each card a thing.
• Try to keep the core rules very simple and avoid too many complexities. Magic and Jyhad have both done this with expansions where they add yet another effect. By all means have loads of effects but detail them on the card and keep them limited to few cards. Nothign puts off new players like a list of 40 possible powers that might or might not come up but that you really need to be aware of tactically, flanking, phasing, shadow, etc etc,

Hope that helps without limiting your creativity. Of course I know nothing so feel free to ignore everything :-)

Nope this is some very solid advice!

Im doing reseach on the magic patent too, to see how badly if it gets off the ground, ill be screwed.
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=13&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=%22magic+gathering%22&OS="magic+gathering"&RS="magic+gathering" (http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=13&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=%22magic+gathering%22&OS="magic+gathering"&RS="magic+gathering")

thats their patent link, and I think having it as a rpg (with solo play avaliable) and avoiding 90 degree turn mechanics, I should be fine.

But otherwise, yes very sound advice! Ill try to remember it, and thanks for all the great ideas!

so last night I went about thinking about game design.

Here is what I have down so far.

You have a playing area. This comprises of your well of creation from where draw all your power from. (This is what ill call the library, deck what have you) next to it on the right, you place your realms (Lands) and avatars (creatures) and any equipment or effects  that you can merge with them.
To the left is the spirt world, where when your avatars) spells and effects go to be judged (Graveyard) to the very right of the playing area is the void (removed from game area) The well of creation can contain any cards you wish from any expansion but must follow the following rules. (1) you can only have play so many of (x) (to be determined) cards in one well, and that the wells "power" Must be 100. (More on what this means later)

The game is as follows; after you determine who goes first both players shuffle their well, and then draw from the well of creation, 5 cards into their hands. The player going first must first play a card THEN draw one card from his or her well. After they have drawn they may attack, equip or cast any spells or weave any magic. After they have done this the turn goes to the next player who follows the same sequence.

(The sequence here is critical, becuase magic patented the system of creating a deck with other expansion cards. By placing a hard 'Power" (more on that later) limit of what you can or cannot place in the deck (instead of whatever you wanted to) this skirts around their claim, because it is a new invention, that is creating a well of cards witch ALSO has restrictions.)

Secondly the Play, draw, action sequence is also critical, becuase magic patented draw,play,action. By changing the play squence its completely different from their claims, and thus, they can suck it.

power: Each card, except realm cards will have on the top of the card their "power level" indicated by specific colors/symbols/or numbers. The total "Power" of the deck cannot be greater or less than 100. during the sequence of play the player must play any cards he has in his hand before drawing any cards. to do so, he can either (a) remove up to his current hand an equal amount of cards from his well into the void, where they are destroyed (removed from the game) each card removed from the game in this manner is equivlient to a prismatic power (ie colorless) to bring forth a cards power or (b) have enough "realms" to bring forth the desired effect he wished to release from the card. A player may play as many cards as he wishes equal to his total sacrifice or realms he has on the playing surface, minding that each card after the first costs an additonal prismatic power to play it. For example playing two cards with a power level of 2 would mean a player would need to have 5 realms (2+2+1) or sacrifice 5 cards to the void, or a combination of the two. (sacrifice three cards, and have two realms already in play)

After the player has played a card, he may then draw from his well. But beware! Your well is your power, and when it is empty, you loose the game!  

Avatars have two stats: On the top of the card, their power. This is the amount of damage they deal to an ungaruded oponents well of creation, with the cards going to the void. be mindfull as this temporarily fuels the others players power and in their next turn they have access to this power to play any counter avatars or spells against you!

On the bottom right of the card, is the cards spirt. This is the amount of damage they can take from spells or other avatars before being slain, and sent to the underworld.

But not all is lost, for in the underworld, your avatars continue to fight for you! (I have yet to work out mechanics here, but its ripe for exploration!)

In no place in the entire game are cards flipped moved or turned, destroying the biggest claim they have patented witch is any movement of the card to indicate its doing something. :rolleyes:

this is of course the two player rules, im working on the single player rules now, and once we get the basic rules from there, we can start with specific stuff to include in this mix. Thoughts?