Hello everyone. I apologize for not being around much, but I haven't had much time for forums lately. However, you guys have always been straight and fair with me, so I thought of you now. As some of you know i've been working on an RPG Toolkit called Tribute. It's based on Lurianic Kabbalah, but it's not a proselyizing tool. It's just that this form of traditional Jewish Kabbalah happens to model reality in a way that I thought might be useful, if I could translate its principles into game mechanics.
I've presented earlier stages of the game here and other places, and until now I had trouble expressing what the game was for, and how it worked. I'm past that stage, and am about to start a playtest of the first of the three parts (levels) of the game. I've written a "pitch" for potential playtesters about the game. I lay everything out that might turn someone off (or on), which is why it's relatively long. I've done away with my earlier formality in talking about the game, and try to just relate what I think is cool. There's some big talk in there, but I think I can back it up. This pitch is telling. The playtest will be showing (and fixing).
The link to join it will be up soon, I'm not trying to gather playtesters today, I'm just trying to make sure my pitch is clear.
https://yetzirah-games.squarespace.com/tribute (https://yetzirah-games.squarespace.com/tribute)
If any of you could read it and tell me if there are any major issues, or unclear concepts in it, I'd appreciate it. I know the game won't be for everyone, but I'm looking for ways to appeal to the people it's for.
Thanks in advance.
A very cool idea. I recently read Lisa Goldstein's The Red Magician and was thinking it would be cool if someone created a fantasy rpg with the Kabbalah or 'Jewish magic.'
So you won me over pretty quickly with the pitch, even if that isn't exactly what you're doing here. I think I may need to re-read the rules section, I'm not the biggest wonk for rules and wonder if you need to go into this much detail. But then your playtesters are going to have to read and play the rules so I guess it makes sense.
The last section where you compare the game system to other systems gives everyone a good idea of your intention and approach. No reason to have someone who is always against storygame elements or more abstract action playtest this game.
One thing I'm left with though is what kind of game is this system intended for? You mention setting material, what would that look like? Will it draw on Kabbalah cosmology or Jewish history? You say you intend for the mechanic to be useable for different settings but some idea of the settings you may think appropriate would make it a bit less abstract.
You rightly distinguish between Kabbalah mysticism and practical magic in RL but how does this manifest in the game? Are magic-like effects possible or are you to find story-based reasons for the mechanics?
As this is for a playtest I guess the mechanic emphasis makes sense but I think some more detail to draw people into the imaginative space of the game would be beneficial.
Quote from: Voros;943842A very cool idea. I recently read Lisa Goldstein's The Red Magician and was thinking it would be cool if someone created a fantasy rpg with the Kabbalah or 'Jewish magic.'
So you won me over pretty quickly with the pitch, even if that isn't exactly what you're doing here. I think I may need to re-read the rules section, I'm not the biggest wonk for rules and wonder if you need to go into this much detail. But then your playtesters are going to have to read and play the rules so I guess it makes sense.
The last section where you compare the game system to other systems gives everyone a good idea of your intention and approach. No reason to have someone who is always against storygame elements or more abstract action playtest this game.
One thing I'm left with though is what kind of game is this system intended for? You mention setting material, what would that look like? Will it draw on Kabbalah cosmology or Jewish history? You say you intend for the mechanic to be useable for different settings but some idea of the settings you may think appropriate would make it a bit less abstract.
Thanks for reading, and I hear you. Tribute Source has no particular setting; it's like Gurps, Fate, or Fudge in that way.
One Setting I intend to build for it, however, is a sort of Walmart/ghetto/trailerpark mysticism setting where the players embody aspects of reality in limited human forms. Each character is part of a larger concept (lesser selves or avatars of a greater self), and has powers to match, but they deal with Earthly problems such as poverty, drug use, and violence. Most of them awaken to what they are through drugs, insanity, or rarely, the occult. In this setting getting out of the neighborhood might mean transcending reality altogether.
The settings don't have to be mystical at all, but the game leans towards the dramatic. Anything from movies or pop culture might work well.
QuoteYou rightly distinguish between Kabbalah mysticism and practical magic in RL but how does this manifest in the game? Are magic-like effects possible or are you to find story-based reasons for the mechanics?
As this is for a playtest I guess the mechanic emphasis makes sense but I think some more detail to draw people into the imaginative space of the game would be beneficial.
You can model magic with Tribute, but Tribute won't teach you magic, per se. That's all I'm trying to get across. If you are studying things on your own, and these Keys are remotely accurate, it might help you along, though...but again, I'm an agnostic who leans spiritual. I've gone so far as to replace the letters of Hebrew words with Tribute Keys, and they tend to say the same basic thing. I chalk this up to the fact that Hebrew was originally pictographic, and pictographic langauges tend to build words from concepts.
I added a "Settings" section at the bottom. Thank you.
I didn't really get the difference between the Tributes (Aleph, mem, Tav) or how exactly Keys work. Examples would be helpful, if applicable.
But then I only managed to grok AW because someone else at the table was already conversant in PbtA-ese.
Quote from: The Butcher;943859I didn't really get the difference between the Tributes (Aleph, mem, Tav) or how exactly Keys work. Examples would be helpful, if applicable.
But then I only managed to grok AW because someone else at the table was already conversant in PbtA-ese.
I hear you. i'll work on that section when I have time.
Tribute Aleph gives rules for
Powers, which define
What you can do (broad goals, like injure or check the target, take control of something etc.).
Tribute Mem gives rules for
Values (motivations):
Why you're doing what you do (Issues, Bonds, and Resolves, the latter of which are drives or decisions ), and rules for
Licenses: which determine
When (and Where) you can use your Powers. These are the things that authorize you to do what you do (like tools, attributes, some special plane of conflict like the mind, some sort of medium you can use, etc.).
Tribute Tav gives rules for
How you do what you do. Along with rules for basic
Maneuvers like movement or grappling, it gives specific details on the parameters of your Powers like reach, duration, charges, etc.
You can choose your preferred level of detail and play the game that way.
I hope that helps. It helped me figure out the basic ideas I need to get across. Thanks for the question.
Quote from: Monster Manuel;943861Tribute Aleph gives rules for Powers, which define What you can do (broad goals, like injure or check the target, take control of something etc.).
Tribute Mem gives rules for Values (motivations):Why you're doing what you do (Issues, Bonds, and Resolves, the latter of which are drives or decisions ), and rules for Licenses: which determine When (and Where) you can use your Powers. These are the things that authorize you to do what you do (like tools, attributes, some special plane of conflict like the mind, some sort of medium you can use, etc.).
Tribute Tav gives rules for How you do what you do. Along with rules for basic Maneuvers like movement or grappling, it gives specific details on the parameters of your Powers like reach, duration, charges, etc.
You can choose your preferred level of detail and play the game that way.
I hope that helps. It helped me figure out the basic ideas I need to get across. Thanks for the question.
That is an order of magnitude easier to comprehend. I'd delete the explanation given on the web page and post this one instead. :) Thanks!
Quote from: The Butcher;943864That is an order of magnitude easier to comprehend. I'd delete the explanation given on the web page and post this one instead. :) Thanks!
Cool. For now I just added it in as a preview of the latter section. I'll sort it out later, but I have to head out soon.
Quote from: Voros;943842You rightly distinguish between Kabbalah mysticism and practical magic in RL but how does this manifest in the game? Are magic-like effects possible or are you to find story-based reasons for the mechanics?
I'm a bit ragged from the push I'm doing to get this out, so I think I initially missed your point a bit here. Sorry for that. It's on me.
I think you're asking whether the keys are descriptive of what's going on in the game world, or metagame tools. The answer is that they can be either, or both. You can use them exclusively to define what you can do in the game world, or make metagame moves that affect the plot in some abstract way with the same tools.
There are ways to directly target things like a player's goal, rather than a character's, if you're into that kind of metagame abstraction. I probably wouldn't want to do anything like that, but it's something I'm designing the game to allow for.
Hope that helps.
Thanks for the response. I agree that your condensed explantion here of the Tributes is clearer than what I read on the webpage. Good luck with the game, let us know when you release the playtest, I would like to try it out!
Thank you everyone. I've updated the pitch (https://yetzirah-games.squarespace.com/tribute/) based on feedback here and elsewhere. I still haven't gotten around to folding the easier explanation of the three stages of the game in, but I'm done adding. The whole thing;s long, but think of it as a kickstarter pitch, except I'm not asking for money- just investment.
This is my last post in this thread unless I have something to reply to. I wrote a blog post about whether Tribute is a Story Game. TL;DR: I don't think so, but it can be used to make them. I go into a lot of stuff that has to do with the reason I joined this site. I talk about my issues with the Forge, Forgisms, etc.
Here it is:
https://yetzirah-games.squarespace.com/blog/2017/2/5/7quupb2rg4op3tvkczy2ekk9hhfuuf (https://yetzirah-games.squarespace.com/blog/2017/2/5/7quupb2rg4op3tvkczy2ekk9hhfuuf)
If you read it or not, thanks.
I looked at the current webpage at https://yetzirah-games.squarespace.com/tribute. Is this your "initial contact" with potential testers? If so, I feel like it is too long. For initial contact, give me a single (8.5x11 or A4 if you're in Europe or wherever) page of "what do I need to do" and "what is in it for me" and "why should I care about your game"?
I am assuming you want responses that I think will help you improve things, so please forgive any lack of continued praise. The page does give a "high production quality feel" in general. One exception is some sentences are kind of clunky.
For the page itself, please reduce the font size. Let it take sizes from my browser settings. As it is, it takes several scrolling pages (at 1600x1200) for me to figure out what a section is talking about.
For "what it's actually like" section, when you explain your game in terms of a game I don't know and/or don't like, you lose my interest. Unless you're comparing to D&D, it is probably best to avoid that.
The "Player Agency" section turns me off based on the title. What might help is "Play the Game you want, in the way you want" simply because when I see "player agency" I say "storygame" and go on to something else. And the whole storygame/player-controlled-narrative is not quite what you seem to be trying to create. (Not meant to start an argument about which is good/bad--simply trying to help market the game to everyone.)
Drop the railroad verbage as well. For people that look at things online, that's just an argument that turns people away. (Not trying to start a thread of that, but there are plenty of people that say "any sort of pre-laid plot is railroading" and that tends to turn off potential GMs and players who like plots.) Use positive language "I do THIS" rather than "I don't do THAT".
The Tribute Source section is confusing when you say you can stop at any stage. I can just do Aleph? With Mem or Tav, it sounds like the game won't have much. This section is way too complex and detailed. The first paragraph of each sub-section is probably sufficient. Discuss mini-games elsewhere if at all, especially if they're optional.
Don't worry about open/closed playtesting. Just say you want playtesters who promise not to distribute what they get and you'll take XX number of them.
QuoteI am assuming you want responses that I think will help you improve things, so please forgive any lack of continued praise. The page does give a "high production quality feel" in general. One exception is some sentences are kind of clunky.
Of course i'm more interested in getting it right than anything. too much praise tends to embarrass me, and not in a "Gee shucks" way, more like a "why are they patronizing me?" way. Not that I see any of that here. I'll work on the sentence structure. Thanks.
QuoteFor the page itself, please reduce the font size. Let it take sizes from my browser settings. As it is, it takes several scrolling pages (at 1600x1200) for me to figure out what a section is talking about.
Unfortunately while i can choose the font and sizes, I don't think I can change whether the site's font takes your sizes. That's on Squarespace's end. It's basically a walled garden that lets people with a decent eye make a fancy website, as long as they don't need too much from it. I'll see what I can do, though. To understand the problem- you couldn't use CTRL - to zoom out?
QuoteThe "Player Agency" section turns me off based on the title. What might help is "Play the Game you want, in the way you want" simply because when I see "player agency" I say "storygame" and go on to something else. And the whole storygame/player-controlled-narrative is not quite what you seem to be trying to create. (Not meant to start an argument about which is good/bad--simply trying to help market the game to everyone.)
I have played a few Story Games, and enjoyed them, but I prefer something more traditional, for my every day games. The game is intended to be a mostly traditonal toolkit, but it's capable of being used to build Story Games. Since the rules can peform operations on other rules (the Keys are the rules, and can make metagame rules if you want them to), it will probably happen. I use Player Agenda because I think it covers the bases, but I will consider other options. I am definitely not one for unnecesary jargon about games, so if I can find something that fits, I'll use it.
QuoteDrop the railroad verbage as well. For people that look at things online, that's just an argument that turns people away. (Not trying to start a thread of that, but there are plenty of people that say "any sort of pre-laid plot is railroading" and that tends to turn off potential GMs and players who like plots.) Use positive language "I do THIS" rather than "I don't do THAT".
I'll work on that.
QuoteThe Tribute Source section is confusing when you say you can stop at any stage. I can just do Aleph? With Mem or Tav, it sounds like the game won't have much. This section is way too complex and detailed. The first paragraph of each sub-section is probably sufficient. Discuss mini-games elsewhere if at all, especially if they're optional.
The stages stack. You need the lower ones to support the higher ones. Aleph supplies the resolution systems, and you only really need one. Some of them are pretty neutral. They're situational and are meant for certain types of challenges, but some are pretty neutral and could be the core mechanic of a traditional (roll x dice) game.
QuoteDon't worry about open/closed playtesting. Just say you want playtesters who promise not to distribute what they get and you'll take XX number of them.
The players not distributing the game is only part of it, and the reason is so bad copies aren't haunting me years from now. However, the main reason for the closed playtest is to create a mailing list or forum for feedback during the playtest. I plan to give the players packets to test different mechanics, in a way that will hopefully be fun, like they did with 5e.
Also "That which costs nothing is worth nothing", by making people sign up and join the group, they have to commit something to the project. A loose pdf download goes into a folder with 1,000 others and is never seen again.
As for the stages stacking, but letting you choose which keys to use, you really only need one power and any other keys you want.
You don't technically need anything from Tribute Mem to play Tav, and vice versa, but the stuff I expect that people want when they add Tavs durations, reach, etc works best with the stuff from Mem under it that helps you build specific powers and abilities, etc.
Hope that clarifies.
Quote from: Monster Manuel;944359Unfortunately while i can choose the font and sizes, I don't think I can change whether the site's font takes your sizes. That's on Squarespace's end. It's basically a walled garden that lets people with a decent eye make a fancy website, as long as they don't need too much from it. I'll see what I can do, though. To understand the problem- you couldn't use CTRL - to zoom out?
I could use CTRL+/- but I don't want to use it. :p Does Squarespace not let you not specify a size? Maybe try font-size: 100%; in your CSS? Currently, it appears font-size is set to 18 for normal text. Default is 16 for normal text.
Well sorry about that. I can't access the CSS without losing my template. I have no back end access. Squarespace is not a typical host. If for some reason the option to use ctrl+/- isn't good for you, then I guess you won't want to come to my site. That sucks, but it is what it is.
Just to explain a bit more, I've used typical hosts like hostgator, but can't jump online at random times to fix issues. I lost my last site because of a runaway plugin. I just want a site that most people can use (it looks fine on even my phone) that isn't a full time job. I'm paying twice as much for a third of the funtionality I'd like, but infinitely less hassle. Eventually, if you're interested, the game will be freely downloadable and distributable, and I might mirror it on a more conventional site.
I can definitely check the text size, though. I can change flat variables, but not percentages, which mess with resonsiveness, a part of the theming that I don't have access to.
I have to apologize to you. I had a bit of a tone in my first reply today, thinking that you were one of the types of people who can never be pleased.
No offense, I'm just letting you know. I was absolutely wrong, and I'm a jerk.
It was in fact set at 18, maybe as a default for my template. I changed it to 16. You have a really good eye. No one else complained, but that probably means that most of them were just quiet about it. Thanks.
Quote from: Monster Manuel;944461I have to apologize to you. I had a bit of a tone in my first reply today, thinking that you were one of the types of people who can never be pleased.
No offense, I'm just letting you know. I was absolutely wrong, and I'm a jerk.
It was in fact set at 18, maybe as a default for my template. I changed it to 16. You have a really good eye. No one else complained, but that probably means that most of them were just quiet about it. Thanks.
No problem and no offense. :cool: I'm a software developer and was approaching it as a programming issue to solve, which can be a bit abrupt. I understand the issues of dealing with annoying software and annoying users. (It was weird when I looked at the site in a developers debug mode. There isn't any CSS for the site--all the changes are made somewhere inline.)
I just didn't want you to lose users who might not even know about control+/-, which I also should have said earlier too. I don't like to use it because some sites get totally messed up by it.
It looks a lot more readable now. The headers really stand out--they might be a bit large for some people now, but it also makes it easier to find sections.
Cool. Thank you very much. I need that programmer approach to things for this game in particular. I need logical people who will find the bugs. I'm not asking you to join the playtest unless you want to, just saying that I need people like you to help this particular project do what it's supposed to. A programmer might not even have to play the game to read the "code" and see the problems.
Incidentally, right now I'm writing up the 12 Labors of Hercules as they were presented and solved in the myths. My end of this is very codelike, just keys and a bit of explaining, like:
Lernean Hydra
Problem: Annex(ation)
Solution: Sliced applied to (heads and necks). Lasting Countered applied to Sliced necks by "fire".
The Annexation ability would require some recharging fuel source that the Hydra was drawing on, but the essence of the problem is proliferation, and so it's about Annexation.
This of course is just my end. I need to write it up for others to use, but the codelike aspect of the Keys helps me quickly sketch things
One other thing. I took what you said about it being too long to heart, but someone who is *really* excited for the game told me it was an excellent kickstarter styled pitch. He's got the enthusiasm, so I have to defer to that. :D He could be blinded by that enthusiasm, but the playtesters should be most the passionate ones.
I originally made it long because I felt that a game that's so weird on the surface, I need to explain why it's weird- it needs to do X, Y, Z, and because of that, it's weird. The source material isn't even the reason it's weird, I chose the source material because I thought it would help me get the functionality as a model of reality to crib from.
My numerous typos are a combination of exhaustion from a crunch time push with this game, and a dying keyboard. Bad combination. However, when fixing some typos upthread, I noticed that I missed a reply I meant to make when I was sectioning off quotes.
Quote from: Tod13;944237I
For "what it's actually like" section, when you explain your game in terms of a game I don't know and/or don't like, you lose my interest. Unless you're comparing to D&D, it is probably best to avoid that.
I have been told that that part was some people's favorite because it gave them a context for the game. I do recognize that most people don't know all of these games, and it can have the opposite effect, that's why I tried to hit an array of styles, like Fudge, Gurps, or Apocalypse World which are all very differerent ways to play the game.
I thought about including D&D, but the default play is not really like D&D. You can make a class and level system with some caveats.
You'd use the Plan Key, which by default would give you 10 levels. A Plan works by giving you things when certain criteria are met- in this case Experience investment. With ten levels, you could do a lot of what a 20-level progression could do but each level would be twice as big. Or you could do kind of prestige classes, each one 10 levels long- tiers.
Further, depending on the campaign variables, you could increase the "depth" (which functions as a scaling multiplier in certain cases) of the Plan by multiples of ten- probably not the best way to do it. But a 100 level class would be a bit like a Japanese RPG or Rolemaster, so who am I to say? Usually depth stuff is abstracted and calculated when required, but you could expose it (in the programming sense) and use it this way.
Quote from: Monster Manuel;944471One other thing. I took what you said about it being too long to heart, but someone who is *really* excited for the game told me it was an excellent kickstarter styled pitch. He's got the enthusiasm, so I have to defer to that. :D He could be blinded by that enthusiasm, but the playtesters should be most the passionate ones.
I originally made it long because I felt that a game that's so weird on the surface, I need to explain why it's weird- it needs to do X, Y, Z, and because of that, it's weird. The source material isn't even the reason it's weird, I chose the source material because I thought it would help me get the functionality as a model of reality to crib from.
The long version is good, once you've got me interested. For an initial contact you want to be compact and make them want to know more. At least, that's my opinion. ;)
Quote from: Monster Manuel;944476I have been told that that part was some people's favorite because it gave them a context for the game. I do recognize that most people don't know all of these games, and it can have the opposite effect, that's why I tried to hit an array of styles, like Fudge, Gurps, or Apocalypse World which are all very differerent ways to play the game.
I thought about including D&D, but the default play is not really like D&D. You can make a class and level system with some caveats.
This was about the "
what it's actually like" section. Gurps and the others are mentioned in the "
who is it for section". The who is it for section is OK. It's a list of who you think your potential audience is, which works for me. Especially, since you say why for each system, which helps since I can go "OK, that makes sense" even if I don't like or can't remember details about the game. I actually don't like any of the games you mention there (why isn't important--none of them are bad, just not my glass of Dr Pepper)--but I can see how you want to provide customization and narration of results, without being too rules heavy but still giving good guidance in how to make things work. The who is it for section also works since the list has a lot of entries that aren't "you play XXXX".
Since it helps you for a large portion of your potential audience, may just rewording it to be similar to the who is it for section. Maybe something like this that says "I'm different from Powered by the Apocalypse" instead of "I'm like PbtA".
QuoteTribute's Moves are a bit less predefined than Powered by the Apocalypse games, allowing for more specific rules-engagement, within a similar gameplay loop.
I only mentioned D&D in my other response because I think it is the one game everyone knows and can compare--I don't think you should compare your game to D&D as you intend a different experience. :)
Quote from: Tod13;944504The long version is good, once you've got me interested. For an initial contact you want to be compact and make them want to know more. At least, that's my opinion. ;)
I get what you're saying about the initial contact now. I've been direct linking anyone who was interested to the big pitch, but the Home page has a paragraph or so for people who have no idea. While asking for big pitch advice, of course, I did send a lot of neutral parties there, which may be an issue.
QuoteThis was about the "what it's actually like" section. Gurps and the others are mentioned in the "who is it for section". The who is it for section is OK. It's a list of who you think your potential audience is, which works for me. Especially, since you say why for each system, which helps since I can go "OK, that makes sense" even if I don't like or can't remember details about the game. I actually don't like any of the games you mention there (why isn't important--none of them are bad, just not my glass of Dr Pepper)--but I can see how you want to provide customization and narration of results, without being too rules heavy but still giving good guidance in how to make things work. The who is it for section also works since the list has a lot of entries that aren't "you play XXXX".
Since it helps you for a large portion of your potential audience, may just rewording it to be similar to the who is it for section. Maybe something like this that says "I'm different from Powered by the Apocalypse" instead of "I'm like PbtA".
I only mentioned D&D in my other response because I think it is the one game everyone knows and can compare--I don't think you should compare your game to D&D as you intend a different experience. :)
Cool stuff. I can't edit the site on my phone, but will address this stuff when I get home.
Earlier, I didn't want to quadruple post, so I was waiting until I had something else to say, but I found some places to add custom CSS. I've already widened the content sections a bit, since the site will have a lot of text, and I want to reduce scrolling. I think it still looks as good as before, just more functional.
Quote from: Monster Manuel;944529Earlier, I didn't want to quadruple post, so I was waiting until I had something else to say, but I found some places to add custom CSS. I've already widened the content sections a bit, since the site will have a lot of text, and I want to reduce scrolling. I think it still looks as good as before, just more functional.
Looks nice. I think you also shrunk the headings a bit? Or is that just the wider text looking better? :-)
I haven't shrunk the headers, yet, but I intend to.