Hello everyone. I apologize for not being around much, but I haven't had much time for forums lately. However, you guys have always been straight and fair with me, so I thought of you now. As some of you know i've been working on an RPG Toolkit called Tribute. It's based on Lurianic Kabbalah, but it's not a proselyizing tool. It's just that this form of traditional Jewish Kabbalah happens to model reality in a way that I thought might be useful, if I could translate its principles into game mechanics.

I've presented earlier stages of the game here and other places, and until now I had trouble expressing what the game was for, and how it worked. I'm past that stage, and am about to start a playtest of the first of the three parts (levels) of the game. I've written a "pitch" for potential playtesters about the game. I lay everything out that might turn someone off (or on), which is why it's relatively long. I've done away with my earlier formality in talking about the game, and try to just relate what I think is cool. There's some big talk in there, but I think I can back it up. This pitch is telling. The playtest will be showing (and fixing).  

The link to join it will be up soon, I'm not trying to gather playtesters today, I'm just trying to make sure my pitch is clear.

https://yetzirah-games.squarespace.com/tribute

If any of you could read it and tell me if there are any major issues, or unclear concepts in it, I'd appreciate it. I know the game won't be for everyone, but I'm looking for ways to appeal to the people it's for.  

Thanks in advance.

A very cool idea. I recently read Lisa Goldstein's The Red Magician and was thinking it would be cool if someone created a fantasy rpg with the Kabbalah or 'Jewish magic.'

So you won me over pretty quickly with the pitch, even if that isn't exactly what you're doing here. I think I may need to re-read the rules section, I'm not the biggest wonk for rules and wonder if you need to go into this much detail. But then your playtesters are going to have to read and play the rules so I guess it makes sense.

The last section where you compare the game system to other systems gives everyone a good idea of your intention and approach. No reason to have someone who is always against storygame elements or more abstract action playtest this game.

One thing I'm left with though is what kind of game is this system intended for? You mention setting material, what would that look like? Will it draw on Kabbalah cosmology or Jewish history? You say you intend for the mechanic to be useable for different settings but some idea of the settings you may think appropriate would make it a bit less abstract.

You rightly distinguish between Kabbalah mysticism and practical magic in RL but how does this manifest in the game? Are magic-like effects possible or are you to find story-based reasons for the mechanics?

As this is for a playtest I guess the mechanic emphasis makes sense but I think some more detail to draw people into the imaginative space of the game would be beneficial.

Quote from: Voros;943842A very cool idea. I recently read Lisa Goldstein's The Red Magician and was thinking it would be cool if someone created a fantasy rpg with the Kabbalah or 'Jewish magic.'

So you won me over pretty quickly with the pitch, even if that isn't exactly what you're doing here. I think I may need to re-read the rules section, I'm not the biggest wonk for rules and wonder if you need to go into this much detail. But then your playtesters are going to have to read and play the rules so I guess it makes sense.

The last section where you compare the game system to other systems gives everyone a good idea of your intention and approach. No reason to have someone who is always against storygame elements or more abstract action playtest this game.

One thing I'm left with though is what kind of game is this system intended for? You mention setting material, what would that look like? Will it draw on Kabbalah cosmology or Jewish history? You say you intend for the mechanic to be useable for different settings but some idea of the settings you may think appropriate would make it a bit less abstract.

Thanks for reading, and I hear you.  Tribute Source has no particular setting; it's like Gurps, Fate, or Fudge in that way.

One Setting I intend to build for it, however, is a sort of Walmart/ghetto/trailerpark mysticism setting where the players embody aspects of reality in limited human forms. Each character is part of a larger concept (lesser selves or avatars of a greater self), and has powers to match, but they deal with Earthly problems such as poverty, drug use, and violence. Most of them awaken to what they are through drugs, insanity, or rarely, the occult. In this setting getting out of the neighborhood might mean transcending reality altogether.

The settings don't have to be mystical at all, but the game leans towards the dramatic. Anything from movies or pop culture might work well.

QuoteYou rightly distinguish between Kabbalah mysticism and practical magic in RL but how does this manifest in the game? Are magic-like effects possible or are you to find story-based reasons for the mechanics?

As this is for a playtest I guess the mechanic emphasis makes sense but I think some more detail to draw people into the imaginative space of the game would be beneficial.

You can model magic with Tribute, but Tribute won't teach you magic, per se. That's all I'm trying to get across. If you are studying things on your own, and these Keys are remotely accurate, it might help you along, though...but again, I'm an agnostic who leans spiritual. I've gone so far as to replace the letters of Hebrew words with Tribute Keys, and they tend to say the same basic thing. I chalk this up to the fact that Hebrew was originally pictographic, and pictographic langauges tend to build words from concepts.

I added a "Settings" section at the bottom. Thank you.

I didn't really get the difference between the Tributes (Aleph, mem, Tav) or how exactly Keys work. Examples would be helpful, if applicable.

But then I only managed to grok AW because someone else at the table was already conversant in PbtA-ese.

Quote from: The Butcher;943859I didn't really get the difference between the Tributes (Aleph, mem, Tav) or how exactly Keys work. Examples would be helpful, if applicable.

But then I only managed to grok AW because someone else at the table was already conversant in PbtA-ese.

I hear you. i'll work on that section when I have time.

Tribute Aleph gives rules for Powers, which define What you can do (broad goals, like injure or check the target, take control of something etc.).

Tribute Mem gives rules for Values (motivations):Why you're doing what you do (Issues, Bonds, and Resolves, the latter of which are drives or decisions ), and rules for Licenses: which determine When (and Where) you can use your Powers. These are the things that authorize you to do what you do (like tools, attributes, some special plane of conflict like the mind, some sort of medium you can use, etc.).

Tribute Tav gives rules for How you do what you do. Along with rules for basic Maneuvers like movement or grappling, it gives specific details on the parameters of your Powers like reach, duration, charges, etc.

You can choose your preferred level of detail and play the game that way.

I hope that helps. It helped me figure out the basic ideas I need to get across. Thanks for the question.

Quote from: Monster Manuel;943861Tribute Aleph gives rules for Powers, which define What you can do (broad goals, like injure or check the target, take control of something etc.).

Tribute Mem gives rules for Values (motivations):Why you're doing what you do (Issues, Bonds, and Resolves, the latter of which are drives or decisions ), and rules for Licenses: which determine When (and Where) you can use your Powers. These are the things that authorize you to do what you do (like tools, attributes, some special plane of conflict like the mind, some sort of medium you can use, etc.).

Tribute Tav gives rules for How you do what you do. Along with rules for basic Maneuvers like movement or grappling, it gives specific details on the parameters of your Powers like reach, duration, charges, etc.

You can choose your preferred level of detail and play the game that way.

I hope that helps. It helped me figure out the basic ideas I need to get across. Thanks for the question.

That is an order of magnitude easier to comprehend. I'd delete the explanation given on the web page and post this one instead. Thanks!

Quote from: The Butcher;943864That is an order of magnitude easier to comprehend. I'd delete the explanation given on the web page and post this one instead. Thanks!

Cool. For now I just added it in as a preview of the latter section. I'll sort it out later, but I have to head out soon.

Quote from: Voros;943842You rightly distinguish between Kabbalah mysticism and practical magic in RL but how does this manifest in the game? Are magic-like effects possible or are you to find story-based reasons for the mechanics?

I'm a bit ragged from the push I'm doing to get this out, so I think I initially missed your point a bit here. Sorry for that. It's on me.

I think you're asking whether the keys are descriptive of what's going on in the game world, or metagame tools. The answer is that they can be either, or both. You can use them exclusively to define what you can do in the game world, or make metagame moves that affect the plot in some abstract way with the same tools.

There are ways to directly target things like a player's goal, rather than a character's, if you're into that kind of metagame abstraction. I probably wouldn't want to do anything like that, but it's something I'm designing the game to allow for.

Hope that helps.

Thanks for the response. I agree that your condensed explantion here of the Tributes is clearer than what I read on the webpage. Good luck with the game, let us know when you release the playtest, I would like to try it out!

Thank you everyone. I've updated the pitch based on feedback here and elsewhere. I still haven't gotten around to folding the easier explanation of the three stages of the game in, but I'm done adding. The whole thing;s long, but think of it as a kickstarter pitch, except I'm not asking for money- just investment.

This is my last post in this thread unless I have something to reply to. I wrote a blog post about whether Tribute is a Story Game. TL;DR: I don't think so, but it can be used to make them. I go into a lot of stuff that has to do with the reason I joined this site. I talk about my issues with the Forge, Forgisms, etc.  

Here it is:

https://yetzirah-games.squarespace.com/blog/2017/2/5/7quupb2rg4op3tvkczy2ekk9hhfuuf

If you read it or not, thanks.

I looked at the current webpage at https://yetzirah-games.squarespace.com/tribute. Is this your "initial contact" with potential testers? If so, I feel like it is too long. For initial contact, give me a single (8.5x11 or A4 if you're in Europe or wherever) page of "what do I need to do" and "what is in it for me" and "why should I care about your game"?

I am assuming you want responses that I think will help you improve things, so please forgive any lack of continued praise. The page does give a "high production quality feel" in general. One exception is some sentences are kind of clunky.

For the page itself, please reduce the font size. Let it take sizes from my browser settings. As it is, it takes several scrolling pages (at 1600x1200) for me to figure out what a section is talking about.

For "what it's actually like" section, when you explain your game in terms of a game I don't know and/or don't like, you lose my interest. Unless you're comparing to D&D, it is probably best to avoid that.

The "Player Agency" section turns me off based on the title. What might help is "Play the Game you want, in the way you want" simply because when I see "player agency" I say "storygame" and go on to something else. And the whole storygame/player-controlled-narrative is not quite what you seem to be trying to create. (Not meant to start an argument about which is good/bad--simply trying to help market the game to everyone.)

Drop the railroad verbage as well. For people that look at things online, that's just an argument that turns people away. (Not trying to start a thread of that, but there are plenty of people that say "any sort of pre-laid plot is railroading" and that tends to turn off potential GMs and players who like plots.) Use positive language "I do THIS" rather than "I don't do THAT".

The Tribute Source section is confusing when you say you can stop at any stage. I can just do Aleph? With Mem or Tav, it sounds like the game won't have much. This section is way too complex and detailed. The first paragraph of each sub-section is probably sufficient. Discuss mini-games elsewhere if at all, especially if they're optional.

Don't worry about open/closed playtesting. Just say you want playtesters who promise not to distribute what they get and you'll take XX number of them.

QuoteI am assuming you want responses that I think will help you improve things, so please forgive any lack of continued praise. The page does give a "high production quality feel" in general. One exception is some sentences are kind of clunky.

Of course i'm more interested in getting it right than anything. too much praise tends to embarrass me, and not in a "Gee shucks" way, more like a "why are they patronizing me?" way. Not that I see any of that here. I'll work on the sentence structure. Thanks.

QuoteFor the page itself, please reduce the font size. Let it take sizes from my browser settings. As it is, it takes several scrolling pages (at 1600x1200) for me to figure out what a section is talking about.

Unfortunately while i can choose the font and sizes, I don't think I can change whether the site's font takes your sizes. That's on Squarespace's end. It's basically a walled garden that lets people with a decent eye make a fancy website, as long as they don't need too much from it. I'll see what I can do, though. To understand the problem- you couldn't use CTRL - to zoom out?

QuoteThe "Player Agency" section turns me off based on the title. What might help is "Play the Game you want, in the way you want" simply because when I see "player agency" I say "storygame" and go on to something else. And the whole storygame/player-controlled-narrative is not quite what you seem to be trying to create. (Not meant to start an argument about which is good/bad--simply trying to help market the game to everyone.)

I have played a few Story Games, and enjoyed them, but I prefer something more traditional, for my every day games. The game is intended to be a mostly traditonal toolkit, but it's capable of being used to build Story Games. Since the rules can peform operations on other rules (the Keys are the rules, and can make metagame rules if you want them to), it will probably happen. I use Player Agenda because I think it covers the bases, but I will consider other options. I am definitely not one for unnecesary jargon about games, so if I can find something that fits, I'll use it.

QuoteDrop the railroad verbage as well. For people that look at things online, that's just an argument that turns people away. (Not trying to start a thread of that, but there are plenty of people that say "any sort of pre-laid plot is railroading" and that tends to turn off potential GMs and players who like plots.) Use positive language "I do THIS" rather than "I don't do THAT".

I'll work on that.

QuoteThe Tribute Source section is confusing when you say you can stop at any stage. I can just do Aleph? With Mem or Tav, it sounds like the game won't have much. This section is way too complex and detailed. The first paragraph of each sub-section is probably sufficient. Discuss mini-games elsewhere if at all, especially if they're optional.

The stages stack. You need the lower ones to support the higher ones. Aleph supplies the resolution systems, and you only really need one. Some of them are pretty neutral. They're situational and are meant for certain types of challenges, but some are pretty neutral and could be the core mechanic of a traditional (roll x dice) game.

QuoteDon't worry about open/closed playtesting. Just say you want playtesters who promise not to distribute what they get and you'll take XX number of them.

The players not distributing the game is only part of it, and the reason is so bad copies aren't haunting me years from now. However, the main reason for the closed playtest is to create a mailing list or forum for feedback during the playtest. I plan to give the players packets to test different mechanics, in a way that will hopefully be fun, like they did with 5e.  

Also "That which costs nothing is worth nothing", by making people sign up and join the group, they have to commit something to the project. A loose pdf download goes into a folder with 1,000 others and is never seen again.

As for the stages stacking, but letting you choose which keys to use, you really only need one power and any other keys you want.

You don't technically need anything from Tribute Mem to play Tav, and vice versa, but the stuff I expect that people want when they add Tavs durations, reach, etc works best with the stuff from Mem under it that helps you build specific powers and abilities, etc.

Hope that clarifies.