Recently I've realized that I've never run a D&D game for my current group. I've played and still play on their games all the time, but I've never run it for them. In fact, it's been some 12 years since I've last run a D&D game. With our Castles & Crusades game drawing to a close, I'm thinking of taking up the challenge and running them a D&D campaign of my own.

Now, I've always felt that D&D is the lingua franca of the hobby, and each and every gamer approaches it with certain expectations which may vary wildly. I like to think that I have a good grasp of theirs, and I'd like to turn them on their heads for this campaign. Which is to say, they expect Dragonlance; I'll give them what RPGnetters conveniently refer to as Fantasy Fucking Vietnam.

For this gaming, I'm squaring off with two campaign design goals.

First, to emphasize the "low fantasy" elements. My players were brought up on AD&D 2e; I'm more of a D&D RC man myself. We've always disagreed on "what D&D is all about" (silly disagreement, of course; D&D is about whatever the hell you want it to be) and I'd like to show them my take on the game. So, this campaign will explicitly not be about long-prophesized heroes saving the Land from the Dark Lord (which is what their D&D games are usually about). This will be about a motley of malcontents raiding monster-haunted, trap-filled ruins for gold and magic. Believe it or not, this approach would be quite novel for most of my group.

Second, to play up the gonzo and the weird. I'm not sure whether to start out with a really freaky setting, like the classic sword-and-planet dying sun set-up with blatant science-fantasy elements (a la The Dying Earth), or a more superficially "standard" fantasy setting with subjacent science-fantasy elements which become slowly apparent as the campaign progresses (Hawkmoon may be the best example).

System-wise, I'm going with Swords & Wizardry; mostly Core, with some stuff from Complete, and D&D RC, and of course, houserules. I'd also love to adapt some mechanics from Dungeon Crawl Classics (e.g. Patrons for Elves and Magic-Users); I might even end up using DCC, depending on what the actual game will look like, and whether I'll manage to pick up the funky dice.

So, who's got advice to spare?

Roll stuff up randomly. I've been enjoying that a great deal in my D&D RC game.  Sure you shape it into your own vision, but make sure that you have fun with the process.

Most people I know that don't like old school actually all tend to hate the same features - near automatic skill failure, spending longer writing characters than playing them, and waiting hours for your turn because you crammed 20 PCs + helpers into a 5' wide corridor with a guy leading the way who is so defense heavy he couldn't hit himself on a natural 20.

If you still do everything you said you were going to do but none of what I said, I'm sure middle schoolers would love it.

Quote from: The Butcher;472533Second, to play up the gonzo and the weird. I'm not sure whether to start out with a really freaky setting, like the classic sword-and-planet dying sun set-up with blatant science-fantasy elements (a la The Dying Earth), or a more superficially "standard" fantasy setting with subjacent science-fantasy elements which become slowly apparent as the campaign progresses (Hawkmoon may be the best example).

Use Earth fast-forwarded a few thousands of years a la the original Planet of the Apes movies so that they can find things that may hint at where they are but do not confirm it.

Quote from: The Butcher;472533I'll give them what RPGnetters conveniently refer to as Fantasy Fucking Vietnam.

For this gaming, I'm squaring off with two campaign design goals.

(...) This will be about a motley of malcontents raiding monster-haunted, trap-filled ruins for gold and magic. Believe it or not, this approach would be quite novel for most of my group.

Second, to play up the gonzo and the weird. I'm not sure whether to start out with a really freaky setting, like the classic sword-and-planet dying sun set-up with blatant science-fantasy elements (a la The Dying Earth), or a more superficially "standard" fantasy setting with subjacent science-fantasy elements which become slowly apparent as the campaign progresses (Hawkmoon may be the best example).

System-wise, I'm going with Swords & Wizardry; mostly Core, with some stuff from Complete, and D&D RC, and of course, houserules. I'd also love to adapt some mechanics from Dungeon Crawl Classics (e.g. Patrons for Elves and Magic-Users); I might even end up using DCC, depending on what the actual game will look like, and whether I'll manage to pick up the funky dice.

So, who's got advice to spare?

Swords & Wizardry Complete sounds good for what you want to accomplish in terms of feel and focus of the game, the motley crew raiding the ruins of X in the wilderness.

I guess if I were you, I would start by the basic set up of the village near some ruins rumored to exist somewhere around, ruins where great riches could be gained. Think Hommlet and Temple. Keep on the borderlands and Caves of Chaos. Redesign to your liking. Then the PCs are basically adventurers showing up in the area to strike it rich, or whatnot.

Make a map of the area. Include the ruins of X. Add some adventure sites around the Town. Stuff like maybe brigands raiding the nearby roads. A clan of goblins in the hills. The lone giant feeding animals to the giant spider leaving on the cliff south of the great peak of howling spirits. You know. Make up a region. From there, let the PCs investigate around town how to get to the ruins, or what's actually going on around town. Let them loose from there.

Win.

I don't think the science fantasy stuff is necessary for your main goal, but if you like it, go for it.

One suggestion I have is to think about how to position the fantasy races. I mean that there's a tendency to romanticize all of them: Elves are high-minded, wise, and noble; Dwarves are stalwart; Halflings are cute and good. I'd suggest giving them all a darker side. E.g., elves are cold, mysterious, and insular; Dwarves are grasping; Halflings are small-minded.

Also, read Finieous Fingers.

Take a look at Mutant Future.  In the back they have a conversion guide for Labyrinth Lord so you could ditch all the D&D monsters and go with Mutant Future creatures and that will add lots of gonzo and weird.

Also, I suggest Carcosa.

Thanks for the replies, everyone! Some interesting stuff here. Let's see...

Quote from: Silverlion;472557Roll stuff up randomly. I've been enjoying that a great deal in my D&D RC game.  Sure you shape it into your own vision, but make sure that you have fun with the process.

Yes! Back in the day I was a "cheater" DM, choosing my pick of every table. Nowadays I'm more inclined to roll the dice, and roll with it.

Quote from: Cranewings;472564Most people I know that don't like old school actually all tend to hate the same features - near automatic skill failure, spending longer writing characters than playing them, and waiting hours for your turn because you crammed 20 PCs + helpers into a 5' wide corridor with a guy leading the way who is so defense heavy he couldn't hit himself on a natural 20.

If you still do everything you said you were going to do but none of what I said, I'm sure middle schoolers would love it.

Interesting perpsective on the mechanics, even if my experience with character creation runs counter to this (roll abilities, pick class, buy gear, WHAM! Off to adventure!). The dreaded "whiff factor" is very much an issue, regarding some Thief skills, and I'm not sure how to tackle this; a possible solution is allowing players to come up with creative solutions to traps or obstacles, garnting them bonuses (kind of like I do with social roleplay and reaction rolls). I'm also making Thieves (renamed Rogues) a more "martial" class (the end result looks a lot like the S&W Complete version of the Assassin), which should dilute the problem somewhat.

As for combats in crammed spaces, I'd hate it to feel sluggish. A melee in close quarters should be deadly. This is fairly easy to pull at low levels, but I see how it could be a challenge at higher levels.

Quote from: jeff37923;472567Use Earth fast-forwarded a few thousands of years a la the original Planet of the Apes movies so that they can find things that may hint at where they are but do not confirm it.

A classic. I'm not sure whether I'm setting this game on a far future, post-apocalyptic Earth (like the aforementioned Dying Earth or Hawkmoon), or a "lost colony" of a starfaring empire (like Tékumel). But strange artifacts of a bygone age should definitely come up, to the characters' puzzlement (and hopefully, for the players' amusement).

Quote from: Benoist;472570I guess if I were you, I would start by the basic set up of the village near some ruins rumored to exist somewhere around, ruins where great riches could be gained. Think Hommlet and Temple. Keep on the borderlands and Caves of Chaos. Redesign to your liking. Then the PCs are basically adventurers showing up in the area to strike it rich, or whatnot.

Make a map of the area. Include the ruins of X. Add some adventure sites around the Town. Stuff like maybe brigands raiding the nearby roads. A clan of goblins in the hills. The lone giant feeding animals to the giant spider leaving on the cliff south of the great peak of howling spirits. You know. Make up a region. From there, let the PCs investigate around town how to get to the ruins, or what's actually going on around town. Let them loose from there.

Win.

Excellent stuff. After years of failed bouts with pretentious and grandiose top-down world-building projects, I've become quite enamored with bottom-up world-building. A "points of light" setting with sparse centers of civilization, distant cities and keeps surrounded by dangerous wilderness and the odd ruin, is definitely in.

I'm still torn between a megadungeon-centered campaign (a la Greyhawk) or a more diffuse, hexcrawl-friendly setup (like the Wilderlands). While I'm not sure my players would warm up to the megadungeon, what I've read on megadungeon-centric games is that not a few sessions tend to happen entirely outside the dungeon proper, and I imagine that players will return to the dungeon if the carrot looks good enough.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;472605I don't think the science fantasy stuff is necessary for your main goal, but if you like it, go for it.

Correct on both counts; it's not necessary, and I do like it. It's also part and parcel with the bigger goal, of taking my players' expectations about D&D and turning them on their heads.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;472605One suggestion I have is to think about how to position the fantasy races. I mean that there's a tendency to romanticize all of them: Elves are high-minded, wise, and noble; Dwarves are stalwart; Halflings are cute and good. I'd suggest giving them all a darker side. E.g., elves are cold, mysterious, and insular; Dwarves are grasping; Halflings are small-minded.

Yes! Dwarves and Hobbits as written by Tolkien (re-reading The Hobbit right now) fit this to a T, and it should be easy enough to emphasize this. For Elves in particular, I imagine their own versions of their History make them look a lot like Tolkien's Elves, with PCs slowly discovering accounts which read more like Moorcock's Melnibonéans.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;472605Also, read Finieous Fingers.

Good stuff. Thanks!

Quote from: Spinachcat;472607Take a look at Mutant Future.  In the back they have a conversion guide for Labyrinth Lord so you could ditch all the D&D monsters and go with Mutant Future creatures and that will add lots of gonzo and weird.

Also, I suggest Carcosa.

Definitely checking out Carcosa, and Vornheim to boot. I've been meaning to do this for some time now. I've got MF (the free PDF), and I think MF + LL can be a killer set-up for a balls-out gonzo science-fantasy game.

Which leads me to another conundrum. As I've mentioned above, I'm definitely including science-fantasy elements in this campaign, which is a first for me (with D&D anyway). In fact, I initially intended to place these elements front and center, with obvious references to the dying earth and sword-and-planet sub-genres. Dying sun, flying cars, vast deserts, sorcerers, mutants, swords, robots, the works.

Recently I've been considering the notion of placing these elements beneath a veneer of traditional fantasy, compatible with their habitual expectations towards a D&D game. And then slowly draw the curtains to a backstory rich with science-fantasy stuff. A ray gun in the dragon's treasure trove. A goblin tribe in the depths of the dungeon, led by a mutant psionic goblin "shaman", which worships a nuclear reactor. A mysterious rogue knight that is actually a disguised robot secretly controlled by a local lord to dispatch his enemies under the pretense of jousting. Basically, the game world gets more and more gonzo the deeper they dig; and I hope the surprise and novelty are enough to keep them digging, but I'm not sure that's how it will pan out.

Maybe being more obvious and upfront about these influences would be better received by the players themselves. I'd get a real kick out of either, but I'm really inclined towards #2 because I can't wait to see the look on their Dragonlance-loving faces when the Knight of Doleful Countenance turns out to be a fucking robot.

Which would you rather go with?

Quote from: The Butcher;472726Recently I've been considering the notion of placing these elements beneath a veneer of traditional fantasy, compatible with their habitual expectations towards a D&D game. And then slowly draw the curtains to a backstory rich with science-fantasy stuff. A ray gun in the dragon's treasure trove. A goblin tribe in the depths of the dungeon, led by a mutant psionic goblin "shaman", which worships a nuclear reactor. A mysterious rogue knight that is actually a disguised robot secretly controlled by a local lord to dispatch his enemies under the pretense of jousting. Basically, the game world gets more and more gonzo the deeper they dig; and I hope the surprise and novelty are enough to keep them digging, but I'm not sure that's how it will pan out.

Maybe being more obvious and upfront about these influences would be better received by the players themselves. I'd get a real kick out of either, but I'm really inclined towards #2 because I can't wait to see the look on their Dragonlance-loving faces when the Knight of Doleful Countenance turns out to be a fucking robot.

Which would you rather go with?

I would totally go with the first proposal. The classic D&D set up where the PCs pull the curtain progressively off the appearances to discover a world ripe with weird fantasy all around. Sounds awesome.

About your question regarding the megadungeon set up v. the hexcrawl setup, it's totally up to you. If you opt for the hexcrawl setup, you know guys like Rob (estar) will love to help you out on this. For the megadungeon, there's guys like me and the other grognards like Philotomy to interact with. Either way, you'll get people to help you out with that.

You could combine the two approaches and get the best of both worlds, so to speak (pun intended), with an hexmap exploration with several exit points scattered throughout the wilderness that each lead to their own dungeon-regions which ultimately are all linked underground to form a single gigantic megadungeon built by "the Ancient" long ago who populated the world by bioengineering elves and dwarves or whatever the hell you want to come up with to explain the gonzo sci-fi you put into it.

Quote from: Benoist;472772You could combine the two approaches and get the best of both worlds, so to speak (pun intended), with an hexmap exploration with several exit points scattered throughout the wilderness that each lead to their own dungeon-regions which ultimately are all linked underground to form a single gigantic megadungeon built by "the Ancient" long ago who populated the world by bioengineering elves and dwarves or whatever the hell you want to come up with to explain the gonzo sci-fi you put into it.

Brilliant. Reminds me of Tékumel's tube-car network. Come to think of it, that is probably how the concept of an "Underdark" (a vast subterranean realms connecting dungeons all over the world) came to be. Shelters against orbital bombardment? Whim of a mad god? Ancient planetary maintenance tunnels? Abandoned roads of an ancient dwarven empire? How about all of the above? I am definitely using this!

I would be upfront with the players.  They don't need to know the specific secrets, but they should understand that the world is weird fantasy where strange, possibly futuristic technology may be discovered.  

This might even add to their creating characters who blend better with your tone and atmosphere instead of them just creating vanilla fantasy adventurers.

I like the idea of pulling back the curtain but without being too blatant about it.  Some magic items, like wands, could be old tech that cannot be made now.  Maybe some magic items must be left in the noon sun to recharge - they have solar batteries but the players don't need to know the details.  There are plans for largely self sufficient nuclear plants - electricity use could be mysterious - everlasting lights that stop working if taken from their source, traps with a mysterious force crawling through your body and making you twitch, the equivalent of magic mouths that detect intruders and give a warning, a cold river that becomes warm after going through a wall of rock, a wind underground that can blow hot or cold.  etc.

If you're looking for a post-apoclyptic science-fantasy megadungeon-cum-setting that's B/X compatible you could do a lot worse than Anomalous Subsurface environment - it's got far future earth, dinosaurs, revived technology commandeered by an evil ruling wizardly elite and more vat-grown demi-humans and monsters than you can shake a stick at. Then there's the gatehouse and first level of the ASE itself, stuffed with cannibalized robots, morlocks and under-dwellers ripped straight from 'The Descent' movie.

I ran the first session with Lab Lord on Sunday and it was a hoot. Two PCs were trying to recover a stolen merchant's loot that turned out to be a chunk of highly radioactive material ("sick rock"). The elf nearly went blind as his wide-spectrum vision was exposed to the maelstrom of emissions. Good times.

Grognradia review plus link to lulu here:

http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2011/06/review-anomalous-subsurface-environment.html

Quote from: Spinachcat;472831I would be upfront with the players.  They don't need to know the specific secrets, but they should understand that the world is weird fantasy where strange, possibly futuristic technology may be discovered.  

This might even add to their creating characters who blend better with your tone and atmosphere instead of them just creating vanilla fantasy adventurers.

This sort of campaign is kind of a gambit, in that it's a bait-and-switch of sorts; yopu sign up for fantasy and get some SF as a "bonus". I'm kind of leery that players might not enjoy finding SF stuff in a nominally fantastic worlds. Also I'm really fond of the dying earth and sword-and-planet subgenres and I'd love to run a campaign built entirely on assumptions from these genres.

On the other hand, as a GM, I'm always looking for new ways to surprise players, and hopefully get them interested in the setting. As a bonus, it'd be fun to tear down any preconceived barriers between fantasy and SF. It's certainly challenging, but I'd like to give it a try.

Regarding characters, in this campaign, it would be desirable that the characters, as well as their players, would be innocent about the setting's secret history as a technologically-advanced world. It feels more immersive to me, as the players' own initial surprise should mirror their characters.

Quote from: Nicephorus;472835I like the idea of pulling back the curtain but without being too blatant about it.  Some magic items, like wands, could be old tech that cannot be made now.  Maybe some magic items must be left in the noon sun to recharge - they have solar batteries but the players don't need to know the details.  There are plans for largely self sufficient nuclear plants - electricity use could be mysterious - everlasting lights that stop working if taken from their source, traps with a mysterious force crawling through your body and making you twitch, the equivalent of magic mouths that detect intruders and give a warning, a cold river that becomes warm after going through a wall of rock, a wind underground that can blow hot or cold.  etc.

Great ideas all! Archived for future reference.

Quote from: Drew;472841If you're looking for a post-apoclyptic science-fantasy megadungeon-cum-setting that's B/X compatible you could do a lot worse than Anomalous Subsurface environment - it's got far future earth, dinosaurs, revived technology commandeered by an evil ruling wizardly elite and more vat-grown demi-humans and monsters than you can shake a stick at. Then there's the gatehouse and first level of the ASE itself, stuffed with cannibalized robots, morlocks and under-dwellers ripped straight from 'The Descent' movie.

I ran the first session with Lab Lord on Sunday and it was a hoot. Two PCs were trying to recover a stolen merchant's loot that turned out to be a chunk of highly radioactive material ("sick rock"). The elf nearly went blind as his wide-spectrum vision was exposed to the maelstrom of emissions. Good times.

Grognradia review plus link to lulu here:

http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2011/06/review-anomalous-subsurface-environment.html

Fascinating stuff. I've read the Grognardia review and I'll also be checking this out.

Quote from: The Butcher;472975it would be desirable that the characters, as well as their players, would be innocent about the setting's secret history as a technologically-advanced world. It feels more immersive to me, as the players' own initial surprise should mirror their characters.

Spinachcat's point about setting expectations is well taken, and my impression is that many "middle school" gamers have very different opinions about SF and fantasy being distinct than you'd get from the old school sources like Planet of the Apes.

What I do in my game and would recommend to you is to have a couple of elements that are totally familiar from science fiction or the real world, but which you consistently refer to in fantastical terms. Make these known to the characters and give 'em to the players as some examples of what the setting is like. "On the equipment list, you'll notice fire beetle glands. You can also buy a fire beetle and harvest one gland a week; they're tubes about a foot long and an inch thick that shed bright reddish light when you snap them."

The players will quickly start referring to these as glow sticks - but as long as you always call them fire beetle glands, the texture of weird fantasy is maintained.

The other thing I'd recommend to make a megadungeon generate adventures in town and the wilderness is to pay attention to the fantasy economy. My OD&D campaign really deepened in this way when we added carousing - spending GP in town to gain XP. And Adventurer Conqueror King is teaching me the importance of defining the high- and middle-level characters in the setting and thinking about who they are (likely adventurers who made good) and what they're up to. Having an idea of what resources these characters control can make it a lot easier to create adversity for the PCs and answer questions like "who gets this tax on things we take from the dungeon, and can we talk him out of it since our dungeon-crawling is killing orcs that raided  nearby caravans?"