Quote from: Levi KornelsenYou have mesmerised me with your trendy ironic posturing.

Take me.

Take me now.

He likes his gamer designers like he likes his coffee - small, dark, and bitter....

You're too tall, Levi! Not to mention not bitter enough!

-clash

Quote from: J ArcaneUmm, perspective?  Is it really that hard to grasp?

Would you want to eat food made by a chef with no sense of taste or smell?  

How the fuck are you supposed to know what actually works in play, if you don't actually, you know, play?

Designers don't work in a vacuum. You play the stuff you've designed, then you give it to playtesters to play it for you. They give you a bit of a wider perspective on what you've written, problems that you haven't foreseen, because maybe your style isn't their style. Stuff like that.

Can anyone give examples of products produced by designers that they think haven't played the game? I suspect in most cases that this is a difference in style between the writer and the person playing more than anything else. After all, the writer only has his own experiences and those of a relatively small group of people to call upon in designing something whilst the product (hopefully) ends up being played by people with as many styles and wishes for the product as there are people playing the game (give or take).

Quote from: One Horse TownCan anyone give examples of products produced by designers that they think have been designed by writers who haven't played the game?

According to Andy K's post above there's a guy at another forum that does this for WotC.

Quote from: James McMurrayAccording to Andy K's post above there's a guy at another forum that does this for WotC.

Yeah, missed that. Still, if that's the case, i expect that it's more of a drain on the editing & playtesting crews involved in those products than a blight on the finished product. Unless of course someone can say that 'product x' sucked because of this, this and this and if he had played the system he was writing for, he would have understood this.

Quote from: James McMurrayAccording to Andy K's post above there's a guy at another forum that does this for WotC.

Not at another forum, in the next town over from me.  Friend of someone in my gaming group. I dunno if he's online in some forum or not. I suspect that he isn't.  It just sounds like he is contacted from time to time:

"Want to write more? We need a couple dozen pages on sorcerers in a jungle."
"Sure"
"Here you go, thanks!"

-Andy

Sorry, I saw you'd edited it and my mind jumped to the idea that you'd replaced RPG.net with "the next town over" to avoid this thread becoming about RPG.net.

Can you give a rundown of a few of the things he's responsible for creating?

Quote from: One Horse TownCan anyone give examples of products produced by designers that they think haven't played the game? I suspect in most cases that this is a difference in style between the writer and the person playing more than anything else. After all, the writer only has his own experiences and those of a relatively small group of people to call upon in designing something whilst the product (hopefully) ends up being played by people with as many styles and wishes for the product as there are people playing the game (give or take).

Many of the published CoC scenarios were written by a chap who had posted publicly that he stopped playing years before, Keith something I think, can't remember exactly.  That said, it shows in the scenarios.

It's actually very common, but we rarely find out who.  I've seen a number of designers say that they know people who write for lines they don't play and that it is quite common but for obvious reasons the precise identities don't tend to get disclosed.  After all, doing so would impact sales most likely.

My understanding is that a great many rpg products are designed by people who never played them, and in several cases by people who don't play rpgs at all.

Quote from: One Horse TownDesigners don't work in a vacuum. You play the stuff you've designed, then you give it to playtesters to play it for you.

I'm afraid this just isn't true.  Many designers are being paid by the word and need the work to pay the bills, White Wolf is particularly prone to this, many of those guys quite simply do not play the stuff they've designed and sometimes have no actual interest in the game in question.  It's a job.

Many, many companies do little to no playtesting.  Even those who do frequently pay little regard to it.  Mongoose is prolific, but their playtesting process is deeply flawed.  SJGames used to have a playtesting process in which playing was not actually required, but fixed this a couple of years back now.  Still, for ages an SJGames playtest did not involve anyone actually playing the game and again it definitely showed.

Quote from: Christmas ApeSo now we not only need to be involved actively in a regularly scheduled campaign, as JimBob likes to remind us, but also to have published a roleplaying game [...]

A "gamer" does not stop being a gamer simply because they're not gaming, any more than you sto beign straight or gay just because you're not getting laid.

A "gamer" is a person who games, or wants to game.

A "non-gamer" is a person who does not game, and does not want to game.

So a "Bitter Non-Gamer" is not simply a person without a regular game group, a BNG is a person who does not game, does not want to game, but rather than just finding another hobby, hangs around it and expresses bitterness about games and gamers.

If you do not game and do not want to game, then no, you are not qualified to tell us about what is good or bad gaming, any more than a vegetarian volunteer for PETA can give me a good recipe for steak and kidney pud.

If you game, or don't game but would like to, then your opinions about gaming are as important and useful as any gamer's.

Writing an rpg, well, it's not a big deal, except in that writing anything to complete, publishable form ain't easy.

See the thing is, I find this whole "I know about this 'dude' in the next town over who writes for Wizards" story totally unbelievable.

I don't find the idea itself unbelievable, but given the fact that it's Freddy Butterpants himself telling the story, and given the fact that this mysterious non-gamin' writer dude isn't named, nor any of the things he has worked on,

...and especially given the essentially dishonest promotion-at-any-cost, trade-war nature of the forgie cult...

I don't know. It just sounds like classic FUD* bullshit.



* - fear , uncertainty, and doubt.

I take it with a grain of salt, but find it believable.

There's plenty of d20 material, official no less, that doesn't look like it ever received playtesting. Truenaming, for instance.

Oh definitely heaps of stuff never gets playtested. I mean, I have here a copy of Active Exploits, and there's no Stealth skill. Now, the thing is aimed at "action" games - and that means, sneaking around will happen. It'd've come up in the first damn session. It's the kind of thing you'll easily forget while typing away, but just one session, and you'd remember it. Obviously, no playtesting - or the guy "tested" the rules, but didn't actually use them. When the person who designed the rules "tests" them, it's no test, because that person doesn't even have to look at the text to know the rules, so anything missing or messed-up, they won't notice.

The only real playtest is the blind playtest - giving out the text, and letting the group game just off that, with no advice or help from the game's designer. And bugger all rpgs get that kind of testing.

So yeah, heaps of rpgs aren't playtested, really. They can still have a lot of good things in them, though - I mean, the game designer will have payed quite a few games, and base their game on ideas from their experience. So they'll base their design on general experience, if not experience with that particular system.

Holy shit. I shut down the vBulletin "Erase trace of all of Abyssal Maw's posts" Greasemonkey script for one day after weeks of use, and look what I have waiting for me in this thread on the same day.

Quote from: Abyssal MawI don't find the idea itself unbelievable, but given the fact that it's Freddy Butterpants himself

Holy fuck, dude, I'd really appreciate it if you'd stop stalking me. Seriously.  The fact that I can now feel your hot breath on my neck when I post in random S-G threads, or that you actively read shit I posted under a pseudonym at RPGNet three years ago is really creeping me the fuck out.   Like, before it was cute with the whole "amass seekrit data for the WAR!" thing, but now it's really just plain sad and creepy. Please get a new hobby or something, or focus on gaming or whatever, and a little less on cyber-stalking me and my friends.

Seriously. Think about the time and effort you put into digging through three plus years of my posts on the Internet.

Quoteand given the fact that this mysterious non-gamin' writer dude isn't named, nor any of the things he has worked on...

Huh, yeah, I wonder why I'd want to keep the identity of my friend's friend hidden from the bitter stalkers that patrol these boards? It's proof enough that you're following me and my friends around all over the place (like when you called out Rob Donaghue on being a fatty. That was really fucking classy), I'd hate to think of what you'd do to THIS nice guy. I mean, what, he just writes because he finds it fun and he was asked to by WOTC. Is there anything wrong with that?

Here's some hints, though, and I'm not saying any more than this. No confirmation of name, nothing:
[EDIT, 2 Hours Later: Fuck this. Retracting info. I'm not turning him into prey for bitter cyber-stalkers like AM.]

Quote...and especially given the essentially dishonest promotion-at-any-cost, trade-war nature of the forgie cult...

Yeah, keep that torch a-burnin. You, Nox and Pundit, backs to the wall against the world.

Time to click on my vBulletin Greasemonkey script again, and have all traces of my little cyberstalker again vanish into the mists.

POOF.

Ahh, shit-free forum browsing again. Thank you, Mozilla. Thank you, Greasemonkey.

-Andy

Loren Wiseman has stated repeatedly that writing for Traveller is his job and wargaming is his passion. But then, as an old GDW hand he knows his stuff, and so long as he focuses on canonicity and starship design all's well.

Quote from: Andy K-Andy

Man, that got a rise!

I'm really just saying I don't actually believe your story. Although this probably can't be seen by your magical script (haha), it's a pretty straightforward deal.

What I "actively read you post as a pseudonym" was when you changed your name to attack someone (Seanchai, I thought) who expressed some unhappiness about some forgie game or something. That, to me, indicates an essential character trait of dishonesty in the service of a promotional agenda.

So when I see the same guy put forth this kind of unbelievable story, I tied the two together. Is that.. confusing? To anyone? In the kindest terms--  I'm saying that you are, in fact, an unreliable witness, and presenting my reasoning.

I'm kind of amazed how you call me a "cyber stalker" for posting that, by the way. Very dramatic. Your'e responsible for linking me dozens of times. Pundit possibly 10x the amount. Are you my cyber stalker too? Are you Pundits cyber stalker? Is anyone being threatened here? I'm just calling you a liar. That's not the end of the world, and besides the fact, it's true.  

Maybe people are actually accountable for things they say and do in public.