James McMurray must be irony-proof.

Oh well.

The reason is that the roleplaying hobby isn't about designing games. That's an entirely different, completely seperate pursuit that -- as of now--typically culminates in a final metamorphosis into either a cultist or a salesman.  

Now, someone could make the case that you can't be a good designer without being an involved gamer, but the reverse is simply not true. You do not need in any way to be a game designer in order to take part in this hobby. Game design is largely irrelevant except for on a micro-local level. Like "in this adventure there will be a chariot race.. so I designed a little system here for chariot races". Every decent GM has to do something like that at some point.

Beyond that .. there are plenty of game designers out there who are decent people who also manage to come across as guys who actually design stuff out of a sense of fun and love of the hobby and it's community. Nobody ever has a problem with them. You ever see a guy flame Matt Forbeck? I haven't.

Then there's a couple of guys out there who think that their divine purpose is to enlighten the unwashed slavering peasants and "save" them. They see themselves as artistes who deserve adulation and tribute; they have the answers to your psychological and moral and political questions (even if you don't actually have any questions), and theyre going to save you all through roleplaying. Somehow. For them, gaming is an act of conspicuous consumerism.

The guys in that second group will tell you it's about "fun", but then they'll always, always, always want to redefine the term.

Quote from: Abyssal MawThen there's a couple of guys out there who think that their divine purpose is to enlighten the unwashed slavering peasants and "save" them. They see themselves as artistes who deserve adulation and tribute; they have the answers to your psychological and moral and political questions (even if you don't actually have any questions), and theyre going to save you all through roleplaying. Somehow. For them, gaming is an act of conspicuous consumerism.

Huh! My Father isn't going to like how you let the cat out of the bag on my Divine Purpose. I await thunderbolts....

still waiting...

Hold on! There are green M&Ms here! I told them NO GREEN M&Ms! They will ALL fry!

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceWell, it is Jared. You expected maybe rainbows and ponies?

-clash

Rainbows and Ponies may just be my new Avatar...hmmmm....

Quote from: flyingmiceHuh! My Father isn't going to like how you let the cat out of the bag on my Divine Purpose. I await thunderbolts....

still waiting...

Hold on! There are green M&Ms here! I told them NO GREEN M&Ms! They will ALL fry!

-clash

Move over bucko! Fun = Me! ...ok, Me and a Bag of chips...um, and nice cup of coffee...and a pastry...O.k. Fun = me, a bag of chips, a nice cup of coffee and a pastry...and squirrels...games about squirrels...and playing some games with Clash at Gen Con...Yes, so, to review, Fun = me, a bag of chips, a nice cup of coffee and a pastry, squirrels, games about squirrels and playing some games with Clash at Gen Con...

That should cover it then. Off with the lot of you. Nope, sorry, it is medical experimentation for the lot of you...

<-note smiley if you did not get the reference to redefining fun and us ego-maniacs.

Bill

IMO fans/gamers/non-designers sometimes know more about the game than the designer who created it. I mean designing a game is one thing, actually playing the game esp over a long period another. And this being the internet the way how some folks express their opinions...

Add to this the fact that this is such a small community and there is a lot of contact between producer and consumer, it's no surprise that discussions can get ugly, fast.

Play defines reality, and when a designer assumes his/her game satisfies everything said designer set out to do and the play/reality shows otherwise, I'm not really surprised that there is so much antagonism between some fans and designers.

The fact is you don't need to be designer to evaluate a game, esp when the designer sets out the aims/goals of the game in such an overt manner.

But then again there are always wankers who will just throw shit at you (designer) no matter what. Those guys are easy to spot and engagement adds nothing but more hostility.

Okay rant over.

Regards,
David R

I definitely agree.

Quote from: David RIMO fans/gamers/non-designers sometimes know more about the game than the designer who created it. I mean designing a game is one thing, actually playing the game esp over a long period another.

Interesting note on that. There's this guy in EDIT:"The Next Town Over" who freelances for WotC, writing official games and supplements for D&D.  IIRC, he wrote parts of Eberron, various game background stuff, etc. If I'm getting my info correctly, he's probably written a good few hundred pages throughout various D&D 3e/3.5 supplements, even today.

Quoth a friend:
"One of these days, I should really sit down any play this game."

The dude's never played a session of post-AD&D 2E D&D, and yet he's writing official material for it for years. :11zblink:

Just backs up your "the fans/gamers can know more about the game than the desginer" bit.

Is it food good material? If so, why does it matter if he's played or not?

edit: yeah, I meant "good material."

Mwa? Food material? Iron Chef the RPG?

-clash

Quote from: James McMurrayIs it food material? If so, why does it matter if he's played or not?

Umm, perspective?  Is it really that hard to grasp?

Would you want to eat food made by a chef with no sense of taste or smell?  

How the fuck are you supposed to know what actually works in play, if you don't actually, you know, play?

Honestly, the biggest thing that has been holding back my own design projects is that I don't feel I've been playing enough.  My head's not in the space to fully appreciate how things really go once they hit the table.  And I have a distinct shortage of GM experience, which is especially vital when you step into the design sphere.

I think the biggest problems in game design all stem from people not actually stopping for two bloody seconds to think about whether this or that thing will actually work in play.

I think it's a typo for "good material".

Quote from: J ArcaneYawn.  I've heard this one a million times before.  It was stupid then, and it's stupid now.  

I've even heard it regarding every concieveable type of entertainment.  I've heard it about RPGs, video games, books, movies, TV series, cross-stitching, and on and on and on.

"You can't criticize because you didn't/don't write/perform/sing/etc. yourself!"  This version's just as laced with amatuer psychology and idiotic implications of jealousy as the rest of them.

Fuck you.  I like what I like, and don't like what I don't like.  That's all the "credentials" I need, thank you very much, now take your silly fallacies elsewhere.

Ah, yes, but have you actually seen the term "BND" before?

What my initial post was getting into (besides my typical cynicism) was the number of people I've witnessed who honestly believe they'll break into creative industry X through the brilliant module/novel/interpretive dance they've made based on the campaign they're running. Sure it's possible, but don't count on it, and certainly don't try to bring those lucky (unlucky?) few who can be creative for a living down to your level by saying "I could've done better than that!"

Maybe you can, but what are the odds that you are? And What are the chances you have the contacts/opportunities to pull it off? Maybe I'm just more cynical about this because I'm a college student studying a field that has a much higher demand of $$$ than of people.

At some level, just about everyone is jealous of those who have "made it." I'm kinda just pointing out that there is a price to "making it." Angry fanboys is one, and Andy K's post is another. That one made me cry inside.

Quote from: Christmas ApeI think it's a typo for "good material".

D'oh! Thanks, your Snowy Simianship! That totally threw me!

-clash

:bow:

Quote from: J ArcaneUmm, perspective?  Is it really that hard to grasp?

If someone can create good material without ever playing it I don't give a rat's ass what their perspective is. Is it really hard to grasp that good stuff is good stuff?

I agree that it's probably a hell of a lot harder to create good material without being a player of the game, which is why I asked about this guy's stuff in particular. If someone has a list of his credits I'd love to see them.

Quote from: Jared A. SorensenThe only things worse than people who waste their lives playing games are the people who waste their lives designing games.

You have mesmerised me with your trendy ironic posturing.

Take me.

Take me now.