Quote from: JesterRaiin;894595If you're ready to waste 100+ words to explain what RPG is, to provide an example of "actual" session and whatnot, even if your game is written (obviously) with veterans in mind, then PLEASE, spend half of that time explaining how it's any different to D&D and why it deserves any attention.

How many words have you spent explaining why persuading you to read someone's game is worth more to them than a thimble of warm spit? Asking RPG authors to accurately indicate how much their game is worth reading seems to me as likely to succeed as asking people how smart they are. If the rules are so poor that I'd rather read the marketing pitch than form my own opinion, then I'm probably going to quit reading pretty quickly anyway, and in all cases I'll be more sure I didn't miss anything worthwhile.

Quote from: rawma;896787Asking RPG authors to accurately indicate how much their game is worth reading seems to me as likely to succeed as asking people how smart they are.

If you're truly smart, then procuring a smart answer to such a question shouldn't prove to be that big problem for you.

As for the game: you demand money for your product. In addition, you demand my time and attention - both limited and I don't mean by that, that I'm highly busy person. It's just that I'm not immortal - the hour or two I'm gonna sacrifice to read your game might go to different activities like sleeping, drinking beer with buddies, mustering my energy and engaging into sexual intercourse with my wife, or simply accusing some anonymous guys in the Net of their alleged idiocy (something I'm no stranger to). Point is, that you want me to choose reading your game over all that and more. You want me to play it rather than 1000+ other games even though I probably already know a few games already. I'm about to spend time reading it, learning it, and then convince my buddies to try it instead of D&D/PFRPG/whatever is supposed to be the most popular game nowadays.

There's no denying about that: one of reasons games are made, is to be sold, to earn money. And that makes the designer a merchant. Don't we, as potential customers deserve a bit of honesty? Sure, sell me a dream, but heck, if it's a nightmare, call it for what it is.

Do bear in mind that I don't demand in-depth analysis. Simple "in case you're a veteran player, no stranger to the most popular RPG there is, let me assure you that what you're gonna read is entirely different kind of game and I don't mean that I replaced STR with CRA, CHA with PRE and made a combat 0.5 sec faster - it means that I developed everything from the scratch and while you might recognize a few universal themes and tricks here and there, you won't be playing D&D - I'd consider it a good start.

Or "I'm D&D fan and while I love the game, I won't pretend it doesn't have its flaws. Therefore, rather than re-invent the wheel I addressed said issues and produced the game you're reading now, one void of combat-lagging attacks of opportunity, badly invented critical hits mechanics, or this damned Alignment Tree. How is my game different to the original, you'll have to find out on your own, I'm afraid, but I assure you, that even if it might not be your cup of tea, I tried to make the reading process as entertaining as possible. I'll hope you're gonna enjoy it."

And that'd be it, as far as I'm concerned.

Quote from: WizardofthePress;896743That's why clones are great and all, but they're still clones. My team, we started from the ground up, Character creation is a streamlined six parter, which is all woven together, every resolution combines 2 or 3 attributes, multi-classing out of the gate when levelling, skill and combat grow from use, combat resolves only an eighth (which is my favourite fraction ;P) of the time d20 takes, and economy and setting reflects not the middle ages but the late renaissance.

This is, in fact quite an honest, refreshing approach. It's a promise of something different, something new, so even if I won't like it, I know I'm probably gonna find something surprising there - a clever solution to inventory management, a interesting way to cast spells, a fresh, rarely used setting, or who knows, perhaps 100 and 1 ways to not write a RPG (not that I'm assuming it).

This is valuable info.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;896841Do bear in mind that I don't demand in-depth analysis. Simple "in case you're a veteran player, no stranger to the most popular RPG there is, let me assure you that what you're gonna read is entirely different kind of game and I don't mean that I replaced STR with CRA, CHA with PRE and made a combat 0.5 sec faster - it means that I developed everything from the scratch and while you might recognize a few universal themes and tricks here and there, you won't be playing D&D - I'd consider it a good start.

My experience is that the what and the how are two different things. Players will not be able to immediately grasp in what way the what is different translates to how it's different. I created a quick start guide that clearly highlighted what was different and still players were dropping like flies in playtests. One playtest GM gave me the idea to add a page on how to play the game and thus highlight not only what is different, by how it translates to a different game experience. Note: when I say a page on how to play the game I'm not referring to the eternal and rather tiresome debate of "you're not going to come and show me how to play an RPG", no, I mean instead how the design differences lead to a different approach to the game. For example, even if there are hit points the way they are handled means your character should not get hit, not even once, so this really changes the way you should play it.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;896841If you're truly smart, then procuring a smart answer to such a question shouldn't prove to be that big problem for you.

Smart people will tell you they are smart. Sadly, dumb people will also tell you they are smart. Reading a marketing blurb isn't going to help distinguish them.

QuoteThere's no denying about that: one of reasons games are made, is to be sold, to earn money. And that makes the designer a merchant. Don't we, as potential customers deserve a bit of honesty? Sure, sell me a dream, but heck, if it's a nightmare, call it for what it is.

If they are really motivated by profit, they aren't going to heed your plea unless there's money in it for them, are they? Being honest about how bad your game is ... doesn't look like a money-maker to me. Maybe you should just read some reviews before parting with your money and time?

Quote from: rawma;896967Smart people will tell you they are smart. Sadly, dumb people will also tell you they are smart.

As usual, it's not only what people say, but also how. Smart ones will find a way to convince the listener, while dumb ones won't go far past "I'm smart and screw you" argument.

QuoteIf they are really motivated by profit, they aren't going to heed your plea unless there's money in it for them, are they? Being honest about how bad your game is ... doesn't look like a money-maker to me.

Why do you assume D&D (or any game, for that matter) clone has to be immediately bad? After all, one man's trash... - just because I wouldn't like it, doesn't mean others wouldn't.
Besides, are you suggesting that bad games are to be protected?

QuoteMaybe you should just read some reviews before parting with your money and time?

It's the Internet. Spend some time reading it and you'll learn that elephant's sperm might cure your cancer, FF4 reboot deserves to be watched, Nobilis is well done game & such.

Quote from: Saurondor;896862Players will not be able to immediately grasp in what way the what is different translates to how it's different.

It depends very much on the game in talking, said differences, the way you construct your explanation and people who read it, I think.

btw, those quick start rules... Are they still available?

Quote from: JesterRaiin;897011As usual, it's not only what people say, but also how. Smart ones will find a way to convince the listener, while dumb ones won't go far past "I'm smart and screw you" argument.

You have not found a way to convince me, so remind me which group that excludes you from?

QuoteWhy do you assume D&D (or any game, for that matter) clone has to be immediately bad? After all, one man's trash... - just because I wouldn't like it, doesn't mean others wouldn't.

When did I mention D&D clones, or clones at all? :confused:

QuoteBesides, are you suggesting that bad games are to be protected?

What? Where do you get this stuff? I'm suggesting that asking bad games to self-identify will probably be fruitless. You could tell us about what game(s) made you so unhappy that you posted this big, huge, massive request, so we can [STRIKE]laugh at you[/STRIKE] avoid the same mistake.

When reading about a game, tell me about the setting first. if I like what I read, I'll check out the mechanics.

Quote from: dragoner;897114When reading about a game, tell me about the setting first. if I like what I read, I'll check out the mechanics.

Yeah, that'd be nice and it doesn't take much effort too.

Let's see... How much space a simple outline takes? "Heroic fantasy influenced by Arturian legends". "Space Western along the lines of Trigun Anime". "Romero's zombies with a twist". "Universal Space Opera". Heck, we have at least two threads dedicated to "explain in a few words...".

Honesty is straightforward, I think.

Quote from: rawma;897088You have not found a way to convince me, so remind me which group that excludes you from?

I'm not here to convince anyone about anything. I'm here with a request - fulfill or disregard it, I'm fine with either. Yet, if all what your game is might be reduced to "tweaked D&D that tries too hard to not be D&D" then don't be surprised if people (like me) call your product "boring, repetitive crap that doesn't deserve any attention, not to mention a single dime". Godspeed!

QuoteWhen did I mention D&D clones, or clones at all? :confused:

This thread is dedicated to this topic - games built upon other games, clones, resembling the original work way too much and their authors refusing to address the issue and admit that in the intro section. Even if you didn't see it in the initial message, or didn't feel like asking about that on the way, you should certainly get the message on the way. After all, there are, like... 10-12 short comments here?

Would you rather prefer me to address the issue in the initial comment?

QuoteWhat? Where do you get this stuff? I'm suggesting that asking bad games to self-identify will probably be fruitless.

From your comment. This one: Being honest about how bad your game is ... . I'm not saying all clones are bad by default, what doesn't change the fact that they are clones. Still, if your game is bad then why to write it in the first place? Why to release it to public? Why demand money for it? And who are your friends that didn't have enough balls to say "uhhh, dude, rethink it, your game is shit".

QuoteYou could tell us about what game(s) made you so unhappy that you posted this big, huge, massive request, so we can [STRIKE]laugh at you[/STRIKE] avoid the same mistake.

No. What I like and what I don't is my own problem and if I were to discuss it, I'd start different, more relevant thread. This one is dedicated to what I feel is quite a good idea and it's exactly what I want to discuss. Nothing more, nothing less.

Off Topic request politely denied. :cool:

Quote from: dragoner;897114When reading about a game, tell me about the setting first. if I like what I read, I'll check out the mechanics.

I have my own settings for fantasy and generally want to create my own for any other genre I enjoy. Therefore, unless you are selling a setting sans rules, telling me about the setting first is going to turn me off just like telling me about your book's great art, beautiful layout, or game fiction included first will. The last set of rules whose setting impressed me enough to use it was TORG -- and that was what, 20+ years ago?

Quote from: JesterRaiin;897146I'm not here to convince anyone about anything. I'm here with a request - fulfill or disregard it, I'm fine with either. Yet, if all what your game is might be reduced to "tweaked D&D that tries too hard to not be D&D" then don't be surprised if people (like me) call your product "boring, repetitive crap that doesn't deserve any attention, not to mention a single dime". Godspeed!

What about GM's who want to play D&D and their players have all ready read the source material? They are that product's ready market, and of course you have to tweak it, or then D&D will jump on top of you with both feet for ripping off their IP.

Not saying you are wrong here about things being boring, repetitive, etc.; could be, but also not.

Quote from: RandallS;897179I have my own settings for fantasy and generally want to create my own for any other genre I enjoy. Therefore, unless you are selling a setting sans rules, telling me about the setting first is going to turn me off just like telling me about your book's great art, beautiful layout, or game fiction included first will. The last set of rules whose setting impressed me enough to use it was TORG -- and that was what, 20+ years ago?

I do sci fi mostly, mostly. So maybe the next setting could be that one in twenty years kind of deal? That is cool if you like to roll your own settings, I do too, it cuts way down on grognardism, or a new splat book that invalidates everything that came before. If a game's mechanics are say BRP or D&D, are you then going to be interested in reading about the mechanics first? I don't see any sense there.

I'll admit I have my picky-ness too, I have a tendency to like the harder edge of sci fi, which often gets people in the Traveller community against me when I mention something about mass and acceleration, which gets into their peanut butter fluff of space fantasy. So I like to see setting, that's where I'm going to see designs, ideas, that might make me purchase  a book. Currently, almost all sci-fi games are really just space fantasy, which has forced me down a funnel to working on another game setting to get what I want.

This does not belong in a book. At best it would fit in a marketing strategy - elevator pitch.

What if I don't care what distinguishes my game from D&D? What if instead I'm designing a game I would like to play and I believe some others out there would too?

Quote from: dragoner;897190What about GM's who want to play D&D and their players have all ready read the source material? They are that product's ready market, and of course you have to tweak it, or then D&D will jump on top of you with both feet for ripping off their IP. Not saying you are wrong here about things being boring, repetitive, etc.; could be, but also not.

I think I already addressed that, but for the sake of clarity - there's ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG ITH D&D's (or any game for that matter) CLONES. they aren't evil by default, there's no devil at work, no such things. In fact some people might seek exactly that - D&D, only sans X, Y and Z (I think I said that too and if I didn't, it's probably because I was abducted and transported to alternative world, where it didn't happen. ). Anyway - an alternative mechanics, or slightly modified setting could be more interesting than the original product, at least for some.

QuoteI do sci fi mostly, mostly. So maybe the next setting could be that one in twenty years kind of deal? That is cool if you like to roll your own settings, I do too, it cuts way down on grognardism, or a new splat book that invalidates everything that came before. If a game's mechanics are say BRP or D&D, are you then going to be interested in reading about the mechanics first? I don't see any sense there.

It depends.

I've been using a few settings (or even sourcebooks) with different than their default mechanics (The Strange and KULT come to mind) and the other way around (One Roll Engine). With that in mind: If you were to say "my lad, I won't lie to you, it's D&D modern + a few rifles & starships, but so it happens that it works great with that awesome setting of mine (and here you say about things people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. C-beams glittering in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate, what translates to "shut up and take my money")", then i'd take your book, skip the boring part (as in "what I already know") and focus on your vision. And I'd fall in love with it, because, heck, there's no saving throw against C-beams glittering in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate.

QuoteI'll admit I have my picky-ness too, I have a tendency to like the harder edge of sci fi, which often gets people in the Traveller community against me when I mention something about mass and acceleration, which gets into their peanut butter fluff of space fantasy. So I like to see setting, that's where I'm going to see designs, ideas, that might make me purchase  a book. Currently, almost all sci-fi games are really just space fantasy, which has forced me down a funnel to working on another game setting to get what I want.

Now imagine picking a book, where some nice guy wrote on page #5: "RPG veterans, a word if you please: this game is different to what you've been playing so far. It's HARD SF, emphasis on "hard". You'll have to deal with health issues following the prolonged stay in 0-gravity environment. A single meteor might pierce your ship's hull and devastate it just as easy as the infamous Asteroid Buster missile. You're gonna argue with your GM about what happens if you decide to fart when your cruiser accelerates to near-lightspeed. Let's face it, it's a game for people who know what Kardashev's scale is and what's the difference between 1st and 2nd Escape Velocity without consulting Google. Enjoy. Or go back to hitting things with your axe...".

How about that?

Quote from: trechriron;897191This does not belong in a book. At best it would fit in a marketing strategy - elevator pitch.

What belongs in a book and what does not, is up to debate. You can't simply say "does not compute" and expect for "the problem" to go away. Even Arneson & Gygax were challenged about some of their ideas and inventions, so no easy way out for you, bro.

QuoteWhat if I don't care what distinguishes my game from D&D?

If your game is original, then simple "veterans: fret not, it's not D&D even if there are dragons and dungeons involved" would be enough. Providing it is, of course. However, if your game is D&D's (aka "the most popular RPG ever") clone and you don't feel like admitting it, or lie about that, then please take a look at the picture from the initial post.

QuoteWhat if instead I'm designing a game I would like to play and I believe some others out there would too?

Go wild. Just be honest about what your game is and what it is not.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;897204...

Go wild. Just be honest about what your game is and what it is not.

Fair enough! And I agree 100%.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;897204I think I already addressed that, but for the sake of clarity - there's ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG ITH D&D's (or any game for that matter) CLONES. they aren't evil by default, there's no devil at work, no such things. In fact some people might seek exactly that - D&D, only sans X, Y and Z (I think I said that too and if I didn't, it's probably because I was abducted and transported to alternative world, where it didn't happen. ). Anyway - an alternative mechanics, or slightly modified setting could be more interesting than the original product, at least for some.

I didn't see it specifically mention D&D clones in your OP, though it could be assumed, or I haven't read every post. D&D clones aren't of high interest to me however.

QuoteIt depends.

I've been using a few settings (or even sourcebooks) with different than their default mechanics (The Strange and KULT come to mind) and the other way around (One Roll Engine). With that in mind: If you were to say "my lad, I won't lie to you, it's D&D modern + a few rifles & starships, but so it happens that it works great with that awesome setting of mine (and here you say about things people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. C-beams glittering in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate, what translates to "shut up and take my money")", then i'd take your book, skip the boring part (as in "what I already know") and focus on your vision. And I'd fall in love with it, because, heck, there's no saving throw against C-beams glittering in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate.

Seen a lot of sci-fi games use the very same Batty quote (which was a total ad lib by Hauer, btw), it sets a very high bar which few games can meet. One of my favorite movies, it is a very subtle nuanced film, such as lot of people don't get that Decker was supposed to be a Replicant, and humanity was slowly degenerating/dying in the toxic hell of what the Earth had become, I think it was dialed back a bit, being a little too grim. If you can pull it off, write that good, cool. I'd probably buy it too.

QuoteNow imagine picking a book, where some nice guy wrote on page #5: "RPG veterans, a word if you please: this game is different to what you've been playing so far. It's HARD SF, emphasis on "hard". You'll have to deal with health issues following the prolonged stay in 0-gravity environment. A single meteor might pierce your ship's hull and devastate it just as easy as the infamous Asteroid Buster missile. You're gonna argue with your GM about what happens if you decide to fart when your cruiser accelerates to near-lightspeed. Let's face it, it's a game for people who know what Kardashev's scale is and what's the difference between 1st and 2nd Escape Velocity without consulting Google. Enjoy. Or go back to hitting things with your axe...".

How about that?

Hard sci-fi is sort of a weasel word too, so I just use the very simple definition of trying to remain plausible, and to maintain some internal consistency. Such as if you are going to have anti-gravity (not too implausible) but then have grav plates for interior gravity, and the spacecraft uses a "gravity drive" for thrust, do not suddenly add that the drive interacts with another gravity source as how it works, and then forget that the grav plates for spacecraft's internal gravity interact with nothing. Or tell me that there is no interstellar communication ala subspace or ansible, but that you can do a real time sensor sweep of a star system a 3.26 light years away in real time. That snaps my suspenders of disbelief. Just do the homework, not shovel stuff in because it sounds cool, reality has a cool quality of its own.

...and "Space Empires", honestly, if I have to read about another space empire, I'm going to throw up and go blind.

QuoteGo wild. Just be honest about what your game is and what it is not.

I think a lot of us are working on games precisely because what we want isn't out there.

A lot of fantasy is just Tolkien rip-offs though, like D&D, I'd much rather see the Dying Earth or something. CS Lewis, when reading Tolkien's unpublished manuscript was heard to say: "Not another elf!" In frustration.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;897146I'm not here to convince anyone about anything. I'm here with a request - fulfill or disregard it, I'm fine with either. Yet, if all what your game is might be reduced to "tweaked D&D that tries too hard to not be D&D" then don't be surprised if people (like me) call your product "boring, repetitive crap that doesn't deserve any attention, not to mention a single dime". Godspeed!

I haven't written a game, so redirect your requests elsewhere. I'm just pointing out that asking people (who are selling a game, based on your comments) to tell you that they failed to be original (and thus hurt their sales), is a naive non-starter. How does it help you to produce your "boring, repetitive crap that doesn't deserve any attention, not to mention a single dime" review if there is or isn't a marketing blurb full of high praise? You still end up determining the truth from the rest of the game whether they satisfied your request or not.

QuoteFrom your comment. This one: Being honest about how bad your game is ... . I'm not saying all clones are bad by default, what doesn't change the fact that they are clones. Still, if your game is bad then why to write it in the first place? Why to release it to public? Why demand money for it? And who are your friends that didn't have enough balls to say "uhhh, dude, rethink it, your game is shit".

I'm explaining, apparently to a brick wall, that your request is not going to achieve anything useful, whether heeded or not. I'm talking about games in general. People who want to make money selling their game are not going to admit that their game is unoriginal or bad in any way, so every game, good or bad, is going to satisfy your request with a marketing blurb, and it's not going to be useful. Even for a good game it may not tell you anything about the game, only what buzzwords are selling, but at least there it's a relatively harmless waste.