At QT Games, we've just finalized a new way to organize and produce our various creature books for the Cosmothea Roleplaying game, but it's made me rethink how we have been moving forward in presenting the rest of the game. My lists of advantages and disadvantages is by no means exhaustive – I just noted a few major points below.

First of all, as some of you know, Cosmothea includes both an extensive setting and multiple genres (fantasy, science fiction and superheroes with multiple worlds, dimensions, etc). Here's some options for organizing the game (excluding the creature books, which are already finalized). There are a few ways we can present Cosmothea. I'd appreciate your feedback on how you would prefer to see an rpg presented with these aspects in mind. Thanks in advance!

Option A:
• One big core rulebook with everything you need to create a character in any of the genres.
• Genre books that provide everything else you need to play in a particular genre, and also includes detailed worlds, advanced gear, treasure, ships, magic or tech, GM's section for running Cosmothea in the genre, etc. (there would be many genre books, but never more than 1 genre per genre book).

Option A Advantages:
• One stop shopping for making a character
• players would see how everything is compatible and easy to start up a different genre or even cross genre without issues, so players might be more enticed to switch genres in the same game rather than switching games.

Option A Disadvantages:
• Gamers that only want one genre (fantasy for example), might not appreciate getting other genres in the same core rulebook even though you can still use much of the material from a different genre in your own with GM approval (everything's compatible, so you could run a scifi race as a fantasy race without issues, if desired). And of course the genre books are still separate. Still, some might be annoyed to get something they didn't want in that core rulebook.

Option B:
• A smaller core rulebook – abilities, skill system, universal talents, combat system, all the basics, but nothing genre specific and no character creation.
• Big genre books that feature character creation, the races and career paths of the genre, along with everything else in the Option A genre books.

Option B Advantages:
• Never pay for rules you don't want! (don't have to be exposed to cool superheroes or scifi if you only want fantasy. Don't feel like you are overpaying because you are getting just what you asked for and no more.

Option B Disadvantages:
• Character creation and glossary is repeated in every genre book, since you may only own one book – so if you have extra genre books, you are getting some redundancy.
• Newer players may have to do some book hopping since a glossary in the genre book may not be enough for them to create their character without sneaking a peek back at the small core rulebook to see a longer explanation on how a rule applies to the game, since glossaries are only definitions with little else and to flesh them out more, just bloats the book further and is more redundancy across the books.

Option C: "Some Other Third Thing" - Spongebob

Do it the way Savage Worlds did it, but don't do it the way the Suzerain guys did. Seriously, the way Savage Worlds presents the material is crisp and clearcut, even if one doesn't like the system, the way of presentation follows a certain pattern that basically does not change if done right.

BTW: You do not present "the game", but "the rules" plus "flavor text". Yes, that's a difference in meaning. I'll explain that further if you want to know.

And no, we do not know about Cosmothea, except that it seems to want to be the "jack of all trades device" of RPGs so badly, if the text on your page is somewhat representative of the RPG itself.

Besides, we already have GURPS, BRP, HERO, d20 and Savage Worlds, how would your system fit in there?

Hi Phantom Black,

As for how to do it, I'll mull over what you said some more. Thanks for your comments. Let's see if I can recall what I wrote ...

Regarding the terminology I used, sorry if I was writing a bit loosely, but I was, as I am now, a bit short on time, and wrote it quickly. I think the information still came across clearly, though you seem to be coming off rather antagonistic. No hard feelings! I was probably unclear in my post or on the intro to the site (which is in the middle of an editing phase and will be updated soon, btw). I'm not claiming Cosmothea is for everyone. I've yet to see a game reach the market without some complaints about it.

As for "no, we do not know about Cosmothea," I wasn't actually referring to you personally, since obviously you weren't aware of it, but there are a few others on this site who are familiar with it. We've been around for quite awhile and I've run Cosmothea for many years both online at a couple different sites and offline - so just because you haven't heard of it doesn't mean no one has around here! No big - I was talking to those who did know about Cosmothea, but I appreciate your thoughts on the topic I presented.

Btw, Cosmothea is by no means trying to be the "jack of all trades device". That's what we have GURPS, Savage Worlds and others for. I've never been that crazy about GURPS, and Savage Worlds, as cool as it is, is a bit too simplistic for my tastes; the others you mentioned are not quite my cup of tea either, so here we are.

Also, Cosmothea is not a generic rpg, but is a system built to support a particular setting - Cosmothea. It just so happens that I love blending genres and so when I began developing the system years ago, I made sure it could handle the setting it was intended for. I also built into it the ability to keep the genres largely separate if desired. Cosmothea is intentionally more limited than a generic rpg, though it can handle a pretty wide range of genres - because those exist in the setting. I'm not so egotistical that I'm not willing to provide options in the game for GM's taking the storylines and timelines in a different direction than I would prefer. The game will support such things - it's not built just for me, but for other gamers as well.

I figure the extra attention we take to make the system work well and the setting desirable, and with the faith I have in Cosmothea itself and the team working on it, is good enough reason for me to go this route.

I know that I don't know everything - that's why I assembled a talented team of designers and artists to assist me in revamping the game and building a product line, and that's why I posted this at a few sites like this one!

Ok, and where's the info now aside from the usual run-of-the-mill corporate talk?

What does Cosmothea do to stand out?
What are the selling points?
Why should i (or any gamer, for that matter) bother to take a look at Cosmothea, at all?

How can folks play a game that doesn't seem to exist yet???

Those questions have already been answered elsewhere and they go beyond the scope of this thread. I would be more than happy to discuss the questions in a different thread (and they are good questions, if put in a negative fashion). Let's please stay on topic. Thanks!  

Quote from: Phantom Black;423318How can folks play a game that doesn't seem to exist yet???

As for that comment, Phantom Black, please refrain from flaming or mimicing one who does such activity. The game exists, which is obvious to anyone who looks around. The fact that the game is not on the market has nothing to do with whether or not it exists.

Does anyone else have comments on the best way to organize game books for publication based on my original post? Please bear in mind that if Cosmothea was a game like D&D with only 1 genre, then I wouldn't be asking the question, but this is a big, multi-genre game so you can't just put everything in one book. Thanks!

Quote from: QTGames;423451Those questions have already been answered elsewhere and they go beyond the scope of this thread. I would be more than happy to discuss the questions in a different thread (and they are good questions, if put in a negative fashion). Let's please stay on topic. Thanks!  

 As for that comment, Phantom Black, please refrain from flaming or mimicing one who does such activity. The game exists, which is obvious to anyone who looks around. The fact that the game is not on the market has nothing to do with whether or not it exists.

Does anyone else have comments on the best way to organize game books for publication based on my original post? Please bear in mind that if Cosmothea was a game like D&D with only 1 genre, then I wouldn't be asking the question, but this is a big, multi-genre game so you can't just put everything in one book. Thanks!

1st: Where have these questions been answered?
2nd: My questions aren't "put in a negative fashion", i'm just critically sceptic about an RPG no one here seems to know about or otherwise folks other than me would react here in this thread.
3rd: I'm asking the question of how folks can be able to play a game that's not published and no one seems to know about, setting-wise or mechanics-wise. Is it a closed beta or what, if so, why didn't you tell when i was asking?

BTW:
Since when is D&D just a game with 1 genre? Huh?

While I have discussed the questions you posted at the QT Games site (including in the forum there) and on Wotc and other sites, the edit I mentioned, when finished (I have lots on my plate right now) will cover the topics in greater detail.

Phantom Black - you have already stated your opinion on the topic of the thread in your first post. Since that time, you have tried to hijack this thread and flame. I have been patient with your derogatory comments thus far, and have not reported you. I would appreciate your not going off-topic. Thanks.

I prefer Option B. I'm the type of person that dislikes bigger core books with rules I'm not using. As for page hopping, I feel it's almost as bad to have to skip through the "unused" sections of a core book as it is checking several books for content. Heck, I'm used to checking more than one book for content - it's unavoidable once any expansion materials are published.

Hope this helps.

Thanks much, dcmechanix, for your comments. I have been using Option A for awhile now (Cosmothea is actually on its 4th major revision, but this is the biggest so far).
I'm not completely sold on any one option yet, though it's never bothered me to leaf through a big book, because I've always enjoyed seeing races and career paths, whether I'll use 'em or not. I just suspected it might not be as appreciated by some others, and then I had a playtester mention he liked B better, so I thought I'd open it up to a wider audience than the QT Games Design Team and Forums.

Right now, I've got starting treasure and genre-specific gear sections all in the core rulebook, along with all races and career paths (classes), etc. Everything in one place for creation. It's a big book and we'll be at the least trimming it down to a more reasonable size and having half the races and career paths in a companion core rulebook, unless we decide to move races and career paths into their respective genre books. That's where I'm at now ... determining if option B is the most desirable by the largest number of people or if they feel an entirely different organization is the best. That said, anyone else want to weigh in on the issue?

Option C: Make the base rules in the main book, and include the fantasy rules either as an appendix or as the main rules. The majority of gamers play fantasy, and that will make the game immediately useful to them. Save other genres for supplements.

Thanks much for your thought and for the additional option, Dan.

While it's true that the largest number of gamers prefer fantasy over all other genres, Cosmothea, like Shadowrun, does blend the genres together at least in areas. There are numerous worlds that make up Cosmothea, and some are not fantasy or fantasy/scifi blends. I would hesitate to showcase fantasy alone as it might cast the game in a light that doesn't properly reflect the larger whole. Perhaps my concern in that regard isn't needed. But some might think Cosmothea is only a fantasy game, which might confuse some potential consumers.

I'd need to make sure it's very clear that the game is multigenre - even if they just pick up 1 book and glance at it. Since pictures are the easiest way for people to quickly see if something is relevant (it's not as immediately obvious with only text, since we live in an increasingly visual society), it would have to include pictures of superheroes and spaceships, etc. to boot, I'd think, even though none of those pictures would be relevant to a fantasy-only gamer's perspective.

Those that are looking for strictly science fiction game might feel ripped off if they have to pay for a book that is filled up with fantasy races and career paths.

You could be right though - the fantasy market is larger, but I'm hoping the average person buying the game is interested in cross-genre fun, though it's not necessary.

You could set it up like Shadowrun then.

Quote from: danbuter;423524You could set it up like Shadowrun then.

That's actually pretty close to what he's got with Option A.

Shadowrun (I'll admit I don't know about 4th edition SR, but this applies to what I've played) has a main book, with the basics of char-gen, and then other books with more advanced rules/equipment.



Option B, is similar to HERO or GURPS, but different in that while those games do provide the stuff to build character with their core rules, what he's talking about would not do so. Somewhat relevant to this point: I've only played first edition White Wolf, but I thought they were talking about doing something like that, with a core set of basic rules published in some small separate book (or am I misremembering here? I'm sure somebody who is up on WW can tell me.)

Added on edit: technically both HERO 6th and GURPS 4th now have more than one main book (although I'd still describe what they've got as "Core Rules").


It almost reminds me of what I remember of AD&D (do they still do it this way?), there is a "core book" DMG, and then the PH.

Only here (with QTGames) instead of the DMG, the core book is the basic rules, and instead of in Players Handbook, you have a series of books for the basics (including char-gen) for each genre. So it almost seems like having one universal DMG and then a series of Players Handbooks for each genre.

Quote from: danbuter

Quote from: QTGames;423517While it's true that the largest number of gamers prefer fantasy over all other genres, Cosmothea, like Shadowrun, does blend the genres together at least in areas.

You could set it up like Shadowrun then.

To add a bit to what I've said above. . . .

I would agree that, if Cosmothea were a single setting, in the way that Shadowrun is a single setting, it would make sense to cover everything in the core-rules (option A).

The problem is that (at least from my current understanding) I don't see Cosmothea as a single setting, not really. All the games may take place in the same Cosmothea Universe, but I wouldn't call that a setting---I see a game's setting as more specific than the whole universe, it is more often a world, or even a specific city.

So what I'm suggesting is that Cosmothea is really multiple settings, which puts it more in the same category of GURPS or HERO. A Cosmothea game, might or might not include magic. The game might or might not include high-technology. In function it is more like GURPS, only the intent is not to be generic.

So where GURPS is a: Generic Universal Role Playing System Cosmothea's goal is to be more like N-GURPS : Non-Generic Universal Role Playing System.



Of course, I may be wrong about the multiple settings thing, especially if the game's creator is intent of describing Cosmothea as a "single setting." But the choice between option A and option B depends on how integrated the various game elements are supposed to be.

If they are to be seen as a single unified whole, (like the elements in a Shadowrun game), then Option A is best.

If they are to be seen more as separate, independent, components, (as GURPS, or in this case, N-GURPS), then option B might be better.

Quote from: warp9;423540...Only here (with QTGames) instead of the DMG, the core book is the basic rules, and instead of in Players Handbook, you have a series of books for the basics (including char-gen) for each genre. So it almost seems like having one universal DMG and then a series of Players Handbooks for each genre.

Actually, Option B, if we used it, would include non genre-specific DMG type material, all basic equipment across the genres (I figure the basid equipment won't take up a great deal of room anyway), fluff that is universal, the combat, skill and other universal systems all in the core rulebook. So it's half Player's and GM's guide, then each genre book is half Player's Guide half setting book (well, it's not 50/50, but you get my meaning).