Working on a game, and I have a question I thought I'd throw out and see if I got any interesting response to...namely what's the best way of handling an attribute modifying to-hit rolls?

For context, the game I'm working on is currently based off d10+modifiers and uses classes/levels. A normal check at the moment typically is d10 + class level (or general skill level) + attribute score, with level and attribute both ranging up to 10 normally.

The warrior class gets a 'fighting' skill, however, I don't really want to lock all warriors into having to buy a huge DEX (or STR) attribute initially - I prefer point buy to random roll myself but dislike characters being super-stereotypical. I'd also prefer to have linear point allocation rather than a bonus table. Currently I'm considering just not having attack rolls modified by any stat but I thought I'd see if anyone else has any interesting ideas.

Depends on what you're going for with the system.  What are your design goals?

Aside: adding full level + stat for a system with a base of d10 may make the numbers wonky.  In the d20 system, a full 20 range of numbers helps deflate numbers inflation, but a d10 system will worsen the effects of such.

With a d10 you are likely to run into what I call 'granularity trouble'

Bonuses will add up too quickly and bork the system.

You may have to have to hit from stat be very limited, or shift some to 'damage/effect'

Instead of a fighter getting to add his level, try adding level/2 with a different perk from hitting better at the odd numbered levels.

Good question...
Overall its a fantasy game - I suppose the initial idea was something like 'E6 using d10' though I've drifted away from that a bit.
In character generation, I suppose ideally I want a player to be able to generate the character from a concept without having system concerns dictate what their stats are, i.e. having trap options like odd-numbered stats in 3.x, or the nasty math puzzles of GURPS/Storyteller stat optimization.

In terms of picking the 1-10 range for stats, I wanted a range of numbers that could be used to adjust rolls directly, without needing a modifier table. I wanted to skip a modifier table so that specific or on-the-fly modifiers aren't unnecessarily complex to apply - so changes from ability damage, buffing, shapeshifting are easy, and so I can have traits that boost a stat in specific circumstances e.g. a character could have Charisma 7, but with a 'pretty' trait that raises it to a 9 for some checks as appropriate - basically working as subability scores.
The 1-10 range is also convenient in other ways e.g. for rules like 'you can wear armour with an Armour Factor up to your Strength score without penalty'. The score might also be used as a dice pool at some stage, maybe.  

The stat range is actually the idea I'm more definite about; while I've gone with d10 I could move to d20 if its too large a bonus on d10.

Also, I'm open to suggestions as to what systems people think just handled to-hit bonuses well? I may be able to steal and adapt something, wherever its from.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;673877The warrior class gets a 'fighting' skill, however, I don't really want to lock all warriors into having to buy a huge DEX (or STR) attribute initially - I prefer point buy to random roll myself but dislike characters being super-stereotypical. I'd also prefer to have linear point allocation rather than a bonus table. Currently I'm considering just not having attack rolls modified by any stat but I thought I'd see if anyone else has any interesting ideas.

Make STR and DEX equally useful for fighters (ie, you can use either for your hit roll - depending on weapon or something - with no penalties or additional resources expendable)?

Quote from: Ladybird;674031Make STR and DEX equally useful for fighters (ie, you can use either for your hit roll - depending on weapon or something - with no penalties or additional resources expendable)?

Maybe...that's basically Conan D20 - you can use a finesse weapon to apply Dex modifier rather than Str (it doesn't need an extra feat IIRC, but does get more complicated in that armour piercing is also slightly different for finesse weapons).

Its not a too bad solution, although they still need one or the other (and a player doesn't get full value for buying both high).

You may also considering taking Aces & Eights approach - Intelligence, Wisdom, Dexterity and Strength all have combat - related bonuses (Intelligence afflicts Accuracy, Wisdom Speed, Dex is Speed and Accuracy, and Strength is Melee Bonus damage - which, in pre - advanced firearms society, will be much more important of course). Point being - have nearly all/half of the stats being combat applicable works a long way towards creating the "clumsy but clever "warrior, so to speak.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;674036Maybe...that's basically Conan D20 - you can use a finesse weapon to apply Dex modifier rather than Str (it doesn't need an extra feat IIRC, but does get more complicated in that armour piercing is also slightly different for finesse weapons).

I don't think seperate mechanics are needed. An STR weapon user crits you by hitting you REALLY HARD in the face. A DEX weapon user crits you by hitting you really hard IN THE FACE. Either way, you've got a broken nose and smashed eye sockets.

QuoteIts not a too bad solution, although they still need one or the other (and a player doesn't get full value for buying both high).

That sort of fighty character concept would rather require both from a character PoV, but you could get around it another way for the game bit. Maybe designing your health mechanic to use both physical stats?

Quote from: Rincewind1;674037You may also considering taking Aces & Eights approach - Intelligence, Wisdom, Dexterity and Strength all have combat - related bonuses (Intelligence afflicts Accuracy, Wisdom Speed, Dex is Speed and Accuracy, and Strength is Melee Bonus damage - which, in pre - advanced firearms society, will be much more important of course). Point being - have nearly all/half of the stats being combat applicable works a long way towards creating the "clumsy but clever "warrior, so to speak.

That's another interesting way to do it. I may try to think of ways to mix it up a bit, if I can come up with something plausible. For Int, I sort of like the idea of rules that can represent the old knight who's a bit slower and weaker but very experienced vs. the young one with better physicals, but I think that's harder to do with a level system (even though I like levels for preventing characters from dumping all their skill points in Kill Stuff).

Quote from: Ladybird;674223That sort of fighty character concept would rather require both from a character PoV, but you could get around it another way for the game bit. Maybe designing your health mechanic to use both physical stats?

Well the in-character PoV is a whole different can of worms
I mean yes, in-fiction I guess it makes sense to have some characters who are better at fighting than others, but with point-buy rather than roll you get to pick the arrangement, so it seems everyone starts turning into hulking monstrosities (with Charismas of blech).

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;674233I mean yes, in-fiction I guess it makes sense to have some characters who are better at fighting than others, but with point-buy rather than roll you get to pick the arrangement, so it seems everyone starts turning into hulking monstrosities (with Charismas of blech).

I was thinking more, "a hardcore fighter is going to be strong and dextrous. One significantly more than the other indicates a street fighter or a ritualised figher, to me".

So, what are your stats? How does your chargen actually work?

Thanks again for your help!
Presently there are 7 stats rated 1-10. Basically STR, DEX, CON, INT, WILL, CHA (the D&D set..) + Luck. WILL helps on rolls to keep going at negative HP, but otherwise no direct combat applications. INT largely helps on skill rolls.
Actually generating stats is tricky. The first method I had was  something like base 5, spread a bonus 6, then lower up to two scores to  add the points elsewhere. Then I tried coming up with some pregenerated  arrays but not 100% satisfied.
There's also a Size stat which is determined by race - humans default to size 5 (5'-foot-something) though this can be increased to 6 or 7 with background points. Size doesn't modify STR; instead both stats separately modify weight capacity or the like. Race doesn't modify statistics - assign points in keeping with racial concept - though a race does get a couple of bonus abilities/skills.
A character also picks a class with includes a set of class skills (level = class level) and gets 8 points to distribute across the more noncombat-related 'general skills'. (LK-5) determines a characters starting number of advantages/disadvantages, with extra hindrances selectable (up to 3 max) to get more advantages. Feat-like abilities are sometimes covered by them, or sometimes as general skills.

At present
Hit Points= CON+SZ +3/level (including first).
Damage = weapon damage dice (based off weapon size; the characters Size rating determines the maximum weapon they can comfortably use, about d8 for a normal human, with a bonus for two-handed use) + a STR damage die (basically STR 1-2: d2, 3-4:d4, 5-6: d6, 7-8:d8,9-10: d10).

Armour subtracts its rating from damage and also ranges about 1-10; I wanted a system with damage about 2d6 to 2d8 and armour about 4-5, so that armour roughly halves the damage you take and can stop a blow completely on occasion. A few weapons are armour piercing and halve armour absorption, others have other advantages. I haven't quite figured out to how to add damage bonuses for level, though I intend to do this somehow.
Magic is mostly a ? at present.

Found this on rpg.net...

Quote from: baakyocalderHackMaster uses opposed attack and defense rolls. Your attack roll is a  d20p* plus bonuses. Your Intelligence and Dexterity determine your  ability score bonus to attack--it's the sum of the two bonuses because  you've got to have enough brainpower to know where to hit and enough  agility to pull it off. Defense is a base d20p**and the ability score  modifiers are Wisdom and Dexterity. Wisdom is the main ability score for  perception based-skills.

If your target has a shield, which is the preferred combat mode for  characters and humanoids, if the defender wins on a non-attacker fumble  but wins by 9 or less , they hit the shield.  If the defender wins by  10, they dodge the attack completely. If the attacker wins and the  defender does not roll a Near-Perfect or Perfect Defense***, the  defender is hit and the shield was bypassed.

Armor and shields provide Damage Resistance and armor makes you easier  to hit--it's not realistic to be able to do crazy acrobatic moves in a  suit of chainmail in a quick period of time such as combat.

*In HackMaster, p on any die stands for penetrating. This is similar to exploding dice in other games but not exactly.
** The base defense of a d20p assumes using a shield and a one-handed  weapon. There are fighting styles for two shields, no shield, unarmed,  offensively using two weapons and defensively using two weapons in  addition to the base defense of a one-handed weapon. In each of these  fighting styles, which all characters can use, ability scores are part  of the defensive modifier.
***Near-Perfect Defense occurs on a natural 19 (natural 18 or natural 19  for thieves) by the defender that beats the attacker total. The  defender gets in a punch, kick, or unarmed attack, or if wielding an  off-hand small weapon, may get that. Thieves rule on Near-Perfect  Defense in light armor.  A perfect defense, which is a natural 20 with a  defense total that exceeds the attacker's roll, gives the defender an  attack with their weapon the next second and doesn't change their  regular attack time. NPDs and PDs make combat quite dynamic.

HackMaster, be decoupling the attack bonus from Strength, makes it so  fighters have to be well-rounded. Fighters are an easy class to  play--because they have so many options they are a challenging class to  play well and fighters typically need high ability scores in everything  but Looks and Charisma to succeed.

HackMaster took the old AC system and made delivering the hurt a  question how easy it is to hit and how much damage do they soak up?  It  works well--it's not hard to hit a giant because they are such a large  target. The thing is, they have such high Damage Resistance they are  hard to hurt.  Kobolds don't have much DR, but they are small and quick  and hard to hit--but deliver a good roll with a weapon and a kobold goes  down about as fast as they did in D&D or AD&D.

Penetration on damage makes every hit a potential killer. So, it's  old-school but more flexible in HackMaster. You never know what will  happen in a fight.

I'm not sure this isn't over-weighting INT and WIS, but I could possibly steal most of that - to-hit INT/DEX, defense couldn't quite be WIS/DEX. since I've currently unhooked perception from willpower to just make Wis 'will', but I could make defense for my game Luck/DEX, possibly.

I think WFRP handles it best, by adding an 'to hit stat' that's independent of Str, Dex, other Dex and more Dex.

Quote from: jadrax;674843I think WFRP handles it best, by adding an 'to hit stat' that's independent of Str, Dex, other Dex and more Dex.

Come on now let's be fair, there are only 2 Dexterities in WFRP 1e - Initiative and Dexterity .