Quote from: HinterWelt;288804Now, if this is my last post here, let me say, I regret I have only one account to give the emperor.

This is, like, the manliest thing I've ever read regarding a messageboard Kudos to you, Bill!

Quote from: HinterWelt;288804Reread with calm dispassion.

Why would I read it any other way, Bill?

In a vain attempt to keep the thread from deteriorating further.

Quote from: Imperator;288724Sure, mate.
Sorcerer uses a dice-pool system. You can use any kind of dice you want as long as everyone uses the same (d10s, d8s, whatever). You get to use one or maybe two of your stats (Will, Stamina, Lore, Cover, and Power if you're a demon), plus any bonus dice you can get through roleplaying, situational bonus, or from previous successful rolls that are directly related to the current one.

What is the range of the stats? How are they generated?

Quote from: Imperator;288724The goal is to get the highest die, either against another character's pool, or against a bunch of dice assigned by the GM if no one's opposing you. The more dice you roll, the better. You compare the outcomes, and the highest individual die wins. Each die you have that is higher than the highest of the other guy counts as an additional victory, and probably can be used as a bonus in following rolls on the same situation / conflict. For example, using d10s:

Ramón rolls 6d10 and gets 4,6,2,8,9,0.
Bill rolls 4d10 and gets 7,7,7,3.

Ramón wins (is my example ) and as he has 3 dice higher than Bill's best (7), he wins with 3 victories.

Of course.

Seems straight forward so far.

Quote from: Imperator;288724That's it. When you're fighting there's a chart with damage: damage is expressed as temporary (only next - action) penalties and permanent (last longer than the fight) penalties. If your penalties go beyond Stamina x2 you're out of combat, unless you're a Sorcerer in which case you get a roll of Will vs the dice you want to use for your next action to get over the pain and keep going. It's almost the only chart in the game, apart from the chart summing up the stats involved in different sorcerous ritual. Right after the fight you halve your permanent penalties, which will last a while, and depending on how much you got you're more or less severely injured.

Is there specific rules on recovery? I have implemented a stat check recovery system that I think will be quite interesting in recovering from damage.

Quote from: Imperator;288724In this game the GM does exactly the same stuff in any other RPG: he decides when a roll is called for, he frames scenes, plays NPCs and so on. Nothing new over there.

Seems striaght forward. When did Sorcerer come out? I know it was a while back but my memory fades...

Quote from: Imperator;288724Hope it helps! I'm no expert, but I will do my best to answer any question.

It does. Thank you for taking the time.

Quote from: Omnifray;288728Burning Wheel has a stat for your wealth resources, and as far as I understand it (I've never played the game), you roll dice to see if you can purchase something. I REALLY don't get what the problem is with having a certain amount of silver to spend and keeping track of it, at least approximately - surely if I buy one warship, I'll be less able to afford the next one... There's frankly something that gets me every time I read some Forgie game spouting off about how the game is about the story, not about the characters' equipment. It's very hard to express what it is that bugs me about it, but I think it might be that knowing the important items that your character is carrying is just --- not really a distraction from the game at all!!! I mean, give the players some credit, it doesn't take them ten seconds to glance at their character sheets and double-check what they've got, and most of the time they'll remember the main items anyway.

As with others, I have seen this implemented with other games. I am implementing a Rarity scale for equipment in Zombipocalypse. Here, you have no "wealth" assigned to items but how hard they are to find. It is a method to abstract equipment "cost" and can be useful in certain settings.

Quote from: Omnifray;288728And I REALLY don't like Let It Ride. The text in the book seems to suggest that there are refs out there who just want the player characters to fail, and make them roll and re-roll until they do. I don't know any refs who can be fairly said to ref that way. Sometimes you want to have multiple rolls to see how things progres in different stages. Things like "Am I going to be able to sneak through the enemy camp" should be unpredictable even at the stage when you're half-way through the camp --- so that you might be tempted to turn back half-way through if you hear a twig snap or something.

I am with you on the "refs what you to fail thing". I do this, as I mentioned earlier, to speed play and reduce monotony of rerolling against the same skill many times. I have had players who insist on the who "every ten feet" rule and roll with it. Some folks like rolling dice. Either way works for me. I have also broken it up unevenly. So, half why through it might be a series of checks to get into the much more heavily guarded prisoner tent but then one roll to get out of camp. For me, it is more situational and how the group wants to play.

Quote from: Omnifray;288728It seems to me that these two rules are an example of predictability vs. unpredictability being exactly the wrong way round in Forgie games. I damn well know whether I can afford a warship or not - and if I have to go round my mates getting a loan, well, let's roleplay it, not rollplay it! (OK, a few rolls might help, but you get the point.) And when I've snuck half-way through the enemy camp I damn well don't know if I'm going to sneak out the other side. Why should these things be the other way round???

Part of the issue I would see is that I do not believe it is inherent to forgie games. However, the issues you site are definitely problems to your play style. I would argue the wealth issue may even be simply a problem. However, I do not think the idea is without merit. The implementation might be tricky but having abstract costs for equipment can be useful and help support the setting.

As for let it ride, that is really so much about the play style. Personally, I prefer to leave that to the group to decide. If you make it a codified rule, you alienate a segment of gamers from your game.

Quote from: Omnifray;288728Let it Ride ruins some of the suspense for me. And having a wealth stat --- I just can't see what the point is.

But maybe I'm being horribly unfair? After all, I've never played this game. Perhaps I should keep an open mind.

Not at all. You have a preferred play style. Nothing wrong with that.

Thanks guys!

Quote from: James J Skach;288807Why would I read it any other way, Bill?

Because you are blinded with Squine passion? Maybe you had too much coffee? Listening to too much Fat Boy Slim?

Oh, wait, that's me...

D) All of the above...

Why would let us not mercilessly mock these non-systems, Pundit?  

Discussing dice mechanics does not come across to me as pushing any kind of agenda, and I say, "Bad form, moving this to Off-Topic, terrible show, old boy."

Quote from: HinterWelt;288815What is the range of the stats? How are they generated?

You spend 10 points between Stamina, Will and Lore. Cover gets a score equal to stamina or Will, depending if you have a profession - lifestyle more phisically or mentally / socially oriented. Oh, I forgot the most important stat: Humanity (which also is rolled frequently) it's the highest between Stamina or Will.

The stats go from 1 to 10, more or less. There's no hard limits, though, but in page 77 you read that a guy with Stamina 10 could smash through a brick wall and run like a horse. In practice, most people ranges from 1 to 6, with 3 the average.

QuoteSeems straight forward so far.

It has some wonky complications with dice, I'm really simplifying it, but this is the core mechanic. I feel that the game could use a revision to clarify and add some questions that Edwards have been answering in the Forge since day 1.

For example, there's no initiative in combat as usually handled in RPGs. Everyone states intent, and describes their actions so the GM can judge if there's some bonus available. Then everyone rolls their dice, and leave them on the table.

The best roll (i.e., the highest) gets resolved first and may interrupt other actions that go after it. If you're attacked before you've acted, you can abort your action and roll Stamina + mods to avoid damage, or go ahead with your action and roll 1 die to minimize or reduce the incoming hit (if this die beats the other guy's roll, it counts like he won with only 1 victory, so penalties will be lighter).

QuoteIs there specific rules on recovery? I have implemented a stat check recovery system that I think will be quite interesting in recovering from damage.

No, the GM decides on how long penalties last. You halve your permanent penalties right after the combat, to represent that usually wounds can be less severe than they feel. It's up to the GM to describe the exact wounds, and therefore, the estimated recovery.

Note that the penalties system can also be used to model for example, a social combat.

Your goal in this game, dice-rolling-wise is to come up with as much roleplaying bonus as you can, and always try to make every roll a consequence of the previous action, so you can get the victories of the former as bonus into the latter.

QuoteSeems striaght forward. When did Sorcerer come out? I know it was a while back but my memory fades...

The electronic edition came out in 1998, and it's useless. Actually, Edwards asks people to ignore it, because many things have supposedly changed. The book came out in 2001.

QuoteI am with you on the "refs what you to fail thing". I do this, as I mentioned earlier, to speed play and reduce monotony of rerolling against the same skill many times. I have had players who insist on the who "every ten feet" rule and roll with it. Some folks like rolling dice. Either way works for me. I have also broken it up unevenly. So, half why through it might be a series of checks to get into the much more heavily guarded prisoner tent but then one roll to get out of camp. For me, it is more situational and how the group wants to play.

I feel that this rule speeds up play, nothing more. It doesn't add or steals power from the GM: it makes life easier. My players like it. Sometimes you're lucky, sometimes you suck.

QuoteI would argue the wealth issue may even be simply a problem. However, I do not think the idea is without merit. The implementation might be tricky but having abstract costs for equipment can be useful and help support the setting.

Again, it simplifies stuff. Counting coins and weight is OK in my book, we do it in our RQ vikings game. But I feel that in many fantasy games the value of currency is better abstracted.

HQ does the wealth thing too. But I'm now uncertain as to whether that can be a roleplaying game.

Burning Wheel is a RPG.  Dogs in the Vineyard is a RPG.  Sorry Pundit but you are wrong here.  Been running games for almost two decades now.  Everything from AD&D to Vampire.  Your notions are making you look less intellegent than ole Professor Bat Wang over at the Forge.  Your threats and moving threads make you look more incapable than the moderators that banned you from rpgnet.

The only reason this thread went anywhere off topic at all is because of YOU.  You just did the ole rpgnet moderator flame bait.  Maybe you ought to change your name to RPGDARREN cause that's what your actions are looking like.

Quote from: Imperator;288827Again, it simplifies stuff. Counting coins and weight is OK in my book, we do it in our RQ vikings game. But I feel that in many fantasy games the value of currency is better abstracted.

Sorry if I'm sidetracking here... Do you have any material online about your Viking campaign ?

Quote from: boulet;288835Sorry if I'm sidetracking here... Do you have any material online about your Viking campaign ?

I've posted an AP here and in RPG.net with the 1st session, and I'm struggling to catch up Also, we've begun a blog (in Spanish) about it. What do you need?

Quote from: droog;288832HQ does the wealth thing too. But I'm now uncertain as to whether that can be a roleplaying game.

Well, the objection seems to be based on the role of the GM. So, let's add a dimension to our research.

What is the role of the GM in the games we have listed?

Does the player get to overrule the GM? (Note: My Uber-Trad designs have this aspect in terms of Karma)

Please continue also to list any other game mechanics also.

Quote from: HinterWelt;288843What is the role of the GM in the games we have listed?

Same as in a trad game: create backstory and setting, judging on rules, playing NPCs, prepping challenges to the PCs.

QuoteDoes the player get to overrule the GM? (Note: My Uber-Trad designs have this aspect in terms of Karma)

Sorcerer and DitV haven't any similar currency. BW has Artha and some mechanics like that, but again, that's not unlimited here. But other persons may explain the artha use better than me.

I will go on record as being completely against silly use of Karma and have gotten right up in his face about it, physcially...


...ok...well...really we jsut shot the shit one night after a GameDay...but...ya know, I have an Internet rep to keep up.

Oh wait...my pic is out there...so...nevermind...

Quote from: HinterWelt;288843What is the role of the GM in the games we have listed?

Does the player get to overrule the GM? (Note: My Uber-Trad designs have this aspect in terms of Karma)

The role of the GM in Sorcerer is to play the demons (I personally find this to be great fun) and hit the chr with situations related to his kicker.

The kicker is where people may bridle a bit. A set-up for a game of Sorcerer goes typically like this:

1. GM has idea for game (Sorcerer is customisable to a large extent and there are no canonical settings). This should include colour and so forth but no plot.

2. GM pitches game to players.

3. Players create chrs, preferrably together rather than in isolation.

4. Players write kickers for their chrs. The kicker is basically your own reversed plot hook, which the GM is supposed to use.


Now whether that puts a game into the ranks of shared narration or not, I leave to the reader. The GM can do pretty much what he likes with the kicker, including saying "I don't think I can work with that."