I want to get some outside thoughts on this situation that came up recently in one of my games.  

Set Up:

• This is an online game using Skype + Roll20.
• I am running the module N5: Under Illefarn using the grey box edition of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting.
  
• I am using the Dungeons & Dragons Rules Cyclopedia as the game engine.
  

On the night in question, we were introducing a new player, and new character, to the game.  The characters were traveling cross country from Daggerford to Laughing Hollow so it was just the party out in wild.  At the end of the last game session, the group had camped for the night and the Copper elf set up two snares around the camp as a precaution.  I had already determined that on this night the group would have a random encounter with Jocko the Wiley and his bandits via an ambush in the middle of the night.

Now, the bandits are only interested in jacking the party's horses.  To that end their strategy is:  two will bandits sneak to the string of horses while the other bandits will rain arrows into the camp as a distraction.  Also, the bandits will launch burning arrows into a nearby tree for better vision into camp.

So I had to work the new character into the situation somehow.  Luckily, one of the PCs was gracious enough to give me some inspiration with the snares he set up.  The PC actually set up a snare trap near the string of horses, and this gave me an idea...

The new PC was also a Daggerford militiamen, but just not on active duty, and traveling back from Secomber to Daggerford.  His group was attacked by orcs and goblins, and he escaped alone into the night.  Luckily, after wandering aimlessly he sees a campfire and approaches.  At first the men in the camp were friendly, but after some conversation and discovering who he was they took him prisoner.  There were eight of them.  Jocko the Wiley and his men have a reward for their heads issued by the Duke of Daggerford.  Jocko alone has a 500 GP reward on his head.

Keying in on the PC snares, I decided that Jocko would go for a prisoner exchange.  

I start the ambush encounter, and a couple rounds into the ambush I have the snare near the horses snag one of the bandits; Earle Watts, cousin to Jocko.  Naturally, the PCs believe that they have the upper hand now, but Jocko calls out for a trade.  All the characters in the group are accounted for so the PCs seem surprised.  Jocko produces the new character's voice for the militiamen to recognize, as well as giving his name.  A couple of the militiamen know the captive militiamen.

OK, so I thought that this would go down like this:  they trade goes down in a tense exchange, and that Jocko would get away due to the unusual circumstances to harass the group in the future possibly.  I figured that saving one of their own would take priority and that they would go for the exchange.

It did not go down the way I thought it would.  LOL!  Who knew?

The group had heated words with Jocko through the darkness, but refused to heed his warning of not to come at them.  Even though they talked at him, they continued on with their own agenda.  Jocko realized that they were just stalling for time to find his location so he skinned out with the prisoner to try and get his cousin back at some other time.

Now, naturally, the PCs are like bulldogs with their jaws locked and decide to follow hot on the bandits' trail.  It became clear to me, the GM, that the PCs were not going to let this bone go.  They followed the trail for several hours and come to a site where Jocko is waiting for them on a large boulder in rocky terrain.  On the boulder with him are another bandit and the prisoner.  The other bandit has a sword drawn next to the prisoner.  

Once again, Jocko tries to trade the militiaman for his cousin with the group.  Again, negotiations don't go well and heated words are exchanged.  I decide that Jocko will demonstrate his resolve and seriousness by stabbing the prisoner in the leg with his dagger.  Now, as the GM I knew that the prisoner PC would survive the stab wound and could easily be healed by the party cleric once the exchange was completed.  

One of the PCs responded by attacking the bandit prisoner with his axe.  I specifically asked the player if he was pulling the punch to do less damage, but he said no.  He rolled 8 damage and the bandit only had 5 HP.  I said that he hacked off the bandit's leg at the knee and that the bandit fell the ground dying horribly.

Jocko and the bandit, who is another cousin, scream in anguish at seeing their cousin murdered before their eyes.  The bandit with the sword runs the blade into the base of the neck of the tied and gagged militiaman prisoner, and they push his limp body to the rocks below.  Yes, I killed the PC outright with GM fiat given the circumstances.

The player of the prisoner asked if there was any chance he lived or survived, but given the extenuating circumstances I said no that his character was dead.  Now, keep in mind that this was the new player's first game session with our group.  He took it well and showed again with a new character.

The group went on to run Jocko and the bandits down in a galloping chase scene and exchanged missile fire until they were all dead.  

So, was this a dick move on my part as the GM?  
Should I have allowed the PC to survive the ordeal somehow?
What would have done in the same situation?

Am I reading this right?  Did the new PC do absolutely nothing the entire session, essentially?  Just sit around, being a prisoner?

Well, that's the Reader's Digest version.  The new player actual played his character's new job negotiation, the orc raid, wandering lost in the night, and the initial encounter with the bandits in their camp.  He also played a part in the night ambush when the bandits' tried to prove that they actually had a militiaman prisoner.  I was trying to insert him into the game fairly quickly and hoping that this random encounter would be put behind everyone quickly.  The best laid plans of mice and men, I guess. *shrug*

Quote from: Drohem;607717Well, that's the Reader's Digest version.  The new player actual played his character's new job negotiation, the orc raid, wandering lost in the night, and the initial encounter with the bandits in their camp.  He also played a part in the night ambush when the bandits' tried to prove that they actually had a militiaman prisoner.  I was trying to insert him into the game fairly quickly and hoping that this random encounter would be put behind everyone quickly.  The best laid plans of mice and men, I guess. *shrug*

Did they have fun? Long as they had fun...

I would not have fiat killed the PC, but instead rolled damage in front of the players. No "to hit" since its essentially a coup de grace, but  players can get wonky about fiat kills.

Yeah, the fiat kill makes total sense, but players can be whiny bitches so I go the extra mile on "fairness".

Good call on not wimping out on the scene!

I don't think I would have enjoyed playing in this.

Anyway, let me get this straight...

You introduce a new PC by having him be a prisoner in an ill-defined trap, and you didn't expect the possibility of the players wanting to kill the bandit, rather than make a deal with him? So, in anger, you killed two of the PCs. Is that the gist of it?

I would have let the pc's kill the bandit immediately and moved on with the adventure. Need a recurring NPC? Use a brother or cousin of the bandit that died.

I definitely would not have killed off two PCs arbitrarily because I was mad my adventure didn't go as planned.

Why did you assume the PCs would want to make a deal in the first place?

After a few things like this happening in my own games, I have decided that when it comes to introducing new PCs, the trick is to keep it very simple and and as far away from something the players can fuck up as possible.

That said, I think the actual setup up was your only real mistake, I think I would have run it pretty much the same way as you.

It was a bad call to start a new PC off as prisoner of the bad guys. After that things went much as I would have expected.

I have occasionally started a PC off as a newly escaped prisoner, but it is always a bad idea to start them off still held captive, and especially bad if their freedom depends on a sequence of events that might not work out.

Quote from: jadrax;607769After a few things like this happening in my own games, I have decided that when it comes to introducing new PCs, the trick is to keep it very simple and and as far away from something the players can fuck up as possible.

That said, I think the actual setup up was your only real mistake, I think I would have run it pretty much the same way as you.

Yes, agreed. It was the setup that was bad. IME PC introductions need to be very simple & as un-muck-uppable as possible.

Quote from: Drohem;607707So, was this a dick move on my part as the GM?  
Should I have allowed the PC to survive the ordeal somehow?
What would have done in the same situation?

I think it was the right action for the game world, but in terms of making it enjoyable and interesting for all the players concerned, the bandit with the prisoner should have warcried and attacked the party, not his prisoner. He's just seen his mate quite viciously killed, and a neck-stab like that sounds like quite a calm kill. So that's what I would have done.

Okay, so it worked out, but I think you got lucky with your new player - congratulations on that!

I'd be hesitant to kill off a new guy right off the bat like that.  Instead, I'd have had the bandit freeze up, with his leader shouting "Kill him! Now!"  A lot of people just don't have it in them to murder, and would hesitate.  That would give the PCs another opportunity to save the prisoner.

The murder made sense in the game world given the course of events.

The setup and method of introduction of the new player was a bad idea from the start. Also, a planned event in which group A ambushes the PCs is in no way a random encounter.

It would have probably gone down better if the new PC was a captive of the bandits that escaped while they were busy sneaking around planning thier ambush. That way he could have entered camp just as the attack got underway and aided the party against his former captors.

More importantly, it would have given him control of his character and actual things to do during the session besides being a helpless victim.

Quote from: everloss;607751You introduce a new PC by having him be a prisoner in an ill-defined trap, and you didn't expect the possibility of the players wanting to kill the bandit, rather than make a deal with him??

No, that's not what happened at all.  The PC was never in any trap.  I knew the PC would want to kill the bandits.  They're PCs after all, LOL!

Quote from: everloss;607751So, in anger, you killed two of the PCs. Is that the gist of it??

No, absolutely wrong.  I was not angry at anyone.  I did kill one PC that evening, but not out of malice or anger.  Frankly, they could have killed the new PC themselves for all I care.

Quote from: everloss;607751I definitely would not have killed off two PCs arbitrarily because I was mad my adventure didn't go as planned.?

I suggest you re-read the OP.  No where did I mention that I was angry, or that I killed off two PCs.

Quote from: everloss;607751Why did you assume the PCs would want to make a deal in the first place?

Sure, a couple of reasons:

• All of the characters (PC and NPC) were of Good alignment;
• He was a fellow Daggerford militiaman;
• I had already said that several of the characters in the group knew of the new PC and had spoken and sparred with him in the militia barracks.

Quote from: jadrax;607769That said, I think the actual setup up was your only real mistake, I think I would have run it pretty much the same way as you.

Quote from: S'mon;607786It was a bad call to start a new PC off as prisoner of the bad guys. After that things went much as I would have expected.

Quote from: S'mon;607787Yes, agreed. It was the setup that was bad. IME PC introductions need to be very simple & as un-muck-uppable as possible.

Yeah, I hear you.  Upon reflection of the events, I feel that this was it.

Quote from: Ladybird;607810Okay, so it worked out, but I think you got lucky with your new player - congratulations on that!

Indeed!  The new guy is a cool cat.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;607836The murder made sense in the game world given the course of events.

The setup and method of introduction of the new player was a bad idea from the start. Also, a planned event in which group A ambushes the PCs is in no way a random encounter.

It would have probably gone down better if the new PC was a captive of the bandits that escaped while they were busy sneaking around planning thier ambush. That way he could have entered camp just as the attack got underway and aided the party against his former captors.

More importantly, it would have given him control of his character and actual things to do during the session besides being a helpless victim.

Just a couple of clarifications here.

1.)  The ambush is a random encounter event on the Random Night Encounter table for the module.  I just pre-rolled any possible random encounters for their journey from point A (Daggerford) to point B (Laughing Hollow) so that I would be prepared.  The new guy just happened to come into the game at this point in time of the campaign flow.

2.)  He had control of his character, although he was bound and gagged.  His character actually made a strength check to loosen his bonds when he was tied to a tree nearby when the bandits were effecting their ambush.  Also, when the bandits brought him closer and removed his gag so that they PCs could hear his voice, he made a move.  He kicked Jocko pretty hard and made a break for it, but with six dudes nearby and being bound, well, he didn't get away.  Lastly, when the bandits were skinning out on their horses, the bandits tried to quickly throw the tied PC onto a horse.  The bound PC tried to make it difficult for the bandits and tried to scare the horse away from them.  Jocko made a serious threat that he would cut off the PCs nose if he didn't get on the horse.  The PC chose to cooperate and get on the horse.  I did give new the player opportunities to interact and try to do something to help himself out of the situation.

Sounds like a great game session to me.

In regards to killing the nerw pc, I would have had him stabbed and bleeding out.

The only real problem I see, is your players seem to have that annoying "Me PC!! Me win! ME no back down!"

I really hate that.

As a player, I love negotiations like that; so much more interesting than "Me Kill!"