Indianapolis has a brothel?

Quote from: KoltarMILLENNICON 22 - just last week , GenCon 2007.
Maybe I just hang out at the more interesting parts of Gen Con??

Eh?  I was estimating how many women there were at the con as a whole.  Actually, here's a post I found with info from the exhibitor packet for 2007 (reporting on GenCon 2006).  

http://community.gencon.com/forums/p/8339/95292.aspx#95292

Short form:

QuoteGender          
Male    82%       
Female    18%       
         
Age          
13 to 17    1%       
18 to 24    10%       
25 to 34    38%       
35 to 44    40%       
45 to 54    9%       
55 or over    2%

So 18% is higher than my 10-15% estimate, but lower than your 40%.

My wife, who is a woman, counts HERO, Castle & Crusades, D6 and Fudge among her favorite games.  

Always plays a fighter.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!My wife, who is a woman, counts HERO, Castle & Crusades, D6 and Fudge among her favorite games.  

Always plays a fighter.

Damn.. She sounds hardcore..

You are a lucky man.

Yes.

My own utterly anecdotal experience is that women gamers don't tend to care about system, or adventure, or story so much as they care about characters.

Pretty much every woman gamer I've run into has been quite willing to play any game that involved getting deeply into their character and having the opportunity to interact with the other characters. Fortunately, my games tend on the whole to focus on that a great deal.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditMy own utterly anecdotal experience is that women gamers don't tend to care about system, or adventure, or story so much as they care about characters.

Pretty much every woman gamer I've run into has been quite willing to play any game that involved getting deeply into their character and having the opportunity to interact with the other characters. Fortunately, my games tend on the whole to focus on that a great deal.

RPGPundit

Hmmm.. That does seem to be true in the couple of cases I know of.. And girls seem to really dig "thief" types..

Well, since 1989, I've probably had a ration of close to 75% female gamers in my groups, except the last 2-3 years.

I'll be blunt; we're different. That's just the way it is.

My experience maps in part with Pundit; Women in general, tend care about their characters and interacting with other characters. And they tend to dislike all the bulky rules. And unlike Pundit, most of the women I game with care a whole lot about the story. Women gamers tend to be more about building than confrontation. It's loads of fun and it tends to throw the game in all kinds of direction. Instead of intimidating a local lord and have him stop harassing the villagers, she might try convincing a third party to intervene.

Now, those are stereotypical examples and yes, there are exceptions. And I've met all kinds of male and female gamers. But by and large, I've seen differences. And thinking about it in retrospect, it's certainly no coincidence that I've had such a high ratio of women and that my favorite RPG is Everway. Tweet himself mentions on his website that the game is considered a "chicks-friendly game" and it is kind of true.

And definitly, women are generally more into Vampire and several indie games and lighter designs than in the detailed stuff. And you'll see women designers gravitate towards a certain type of games most of the time. That's just the way it is.  

That's not to say that there are only two big distinct molds, one for men and one for women. But to deny the trends is kind of silly...

QuoteWell, since 1989, I've probably had a ration of close to 75% female gamers in my groups, except the last 2-3 years.

Well, you have certainly been a lucky guy! It also means that you have had a lot of experience in the matter.. Exactly what I am looking for.

Those are very interesting observations Consonant Dude. Your observations that women tend to prefer indirect confrontation via NPCs v.s. direct confrontation is a different way to look at it that I have never thought of before. So would you say, also, that women love to interact with NPCs, in general?

It also makes me want to take a look at "Everway," which I somehow missed.

I would tend to agree that the average female gamer prefers rules-light (and even diceless stuff, few attributes) over crunch.

Now that you mention that women tend to care a whole lot about the story.. In your experience, do womens show any slant towards storygames? Although these games tend to give more freedom in affecting the story, they tend to sacrifice character roleplaying (which is not good since women tend to like to get into their character) and gameplay options.. Since the story/character roleplaying elements tend to cancel each other out in storygames, it may be that women show no overall preference for them.

QuoteAnd definitly, women are generally more into Vampire and several indie games and lighter designs than in the detailed stuff. And you'll see women designers gravitate towards a certain type of games most of the time. That's just the way it is.
That's not to say that there are only two big distinct molds, one for men and one for women. But to deny the trends is kind of silly...

Quoted for truth.

Quote from: LancerWell, you have certainly been a lucky guy! It also means that you have had a lot of experience in the matter..

Oh yes, I feel lucky. Not because I prefer playing with women (my only preference is to play with people I get along well with) but because it allowed me to live different gaming experiences, I think. Before 89 I had been mostly confined with males-only group, with the odd female member occasionally

Quote from: LancerThose are very interesting observations Consonant Dude. Your observations that women tend to prefer indirect confrontation via NPCs v.s. direct confrontation is a different way to look at it that I have never thought of before. So would you say, also, that women love to interact with NPCs, in general?

In general, yes. Especially quality NPCs and interaction. If as a GM you provide them with interesting NPCs (and that includes neutral parties but also friends, rivals and of course enemies) you will engage them. Note that, like everything good in life, this somewhat applies to both genders. I mean, most people prefer a quality NPC to a sucky one.

But in general, the many, many women I gamed with tended to like that stuff.

Quote from: LancerIt also makes me want to take a look at "Everway," which I somehow missed.

It's an amazing game, IMO. A milestone in gaming history and well ahead of its time. And although the reasons I like it have nothing to do with female gamers, I'm now contemplating with this thread how much it influenced subsequent events.

At the very least, I know for a fact that Everway facilitated the beginnings of two female GMs that I can remember. Two women who had steadfastly refused to DM/GM anything, under any circumstances and who voluntarily decided to try to do so and chose Everway themselves. That says something to me right there, especially when I know my anecdotal evidence matches with Jonathan Tweet, the creator of said game.

Quote from: LancerI would tend to agree that the average female gamer prefers rules-light (and even diceless stuff, few attributes) over crunch.

Yeah, and I know some people might see it as an attack on women. You know, the old "they not do mathz wery well" attack. But it doesn't have to be that. Just because someone doesn't like to do something during a particular activity (math, crunch, strategy, immersion, interaction, whatever it is and whatever your gender is) doesn't mean that are incapable of doing it. It just means they don't like doing it in this particular context.

Quote from: LancerNow that you mention that women tend to care a whole lot about the story.. In your experience, do womens show any slant towards storygames? Although these games tend to give more freedom in affecting the story, they tend to sacrifice character roleplaying (which is not good since women tend to like to get into their character) and gameplay options.. Since the story/character roleplaying elements tend to cancel each other out in storygames, it may be that women show no overall preference for them.

Here we get in the area of debate where I may or may not get at odds with certain forum members. Because "story", as a word around here, has been demonized.

I think women in general do indeed like immersion. They certainly like being in character and as I said, they like interacting with other characters. And that in itself leads to cool and interesting stories.

There are all sorts of definitions of "story" in the context of gaming, and of "story games". And there's definitly a scale on how "story-gamey" a particular game can be.

Story games as *I* understand it are games where there are specific mechanics and choice you, the player, can affect the unfolding events as opposed to just an avatar. I think those mechanisms can be really cool. I also think all roleplaying games arguably contain some degree of this.

That being said, it's not the only way to get story out of your games. Immersion and interaction will produce stories. Memorable events and the like.

Light mechanics, whether they are story-gamey or not, tend to get out of the way quickly and allow players to resume playing. Which allows more immersion. Most story games are light in nature, which may be why they attract more women playing and designing.

Quote from: Kyle AaronNo.

Most people start roleplaying games in high school or at university.

Now think of the guys you knew in your high school or uni game group. Not exactly super-hot.

So, a young woman comes to university, is looking for an interesting hobby to join, looks at the athletics club, the roleplaying club, church group, whatever - the gamer blokes at the ages of 17-21 are about the least appealing, being in poor physical shape, dressing sloppily, staring in lust at every female who drops in, etc.

Because they don't join in at that age, just like males who don't join in at that age, they tend not to join in later.

It's a vicious circle.

To this I would draw a parallel to the computer industry.   Originally, computers were for Geeks-Of-The-Worst-Kind, the real pen-clip black glasses types with the starched white shirts.   The Cool people would not be caught *Dead* hanging around the Geeks.   And yet, what did the Geeks do over time with computers?   Well, they got smart, and said, how can we make these appeal to The Others.   And so they added cornflower blue shaded icons to everything, and made them fun and appealing, and eventually even sexy.  Now... everyone has a computer, or wants one.  

Could not the same thing be true for RPGs?  My guess:  yes they could.  But it takes thinking about it and working at it and coming up with good answers to questions like this one.  

What makes some girls attracted to some RPGs, and not others?   Excellent question.

As for me, I'm going with the idea that girls are attracted to games that are story-centric... not "Story-Games" as defined by Forge, but traditional style RPGs where the story counts, and is interesting, and the charactes are involved with each other and the world is interesting.   I know that in the games I've played the girls tended to show up at the GM's house where the GM had an interesting world, and was in control of the game, and there were opportunities for immersion.   Don't know how LARPing would fit in, but my hunch is that somehow Immersion is a key component.

I've played a lot of years, and I can say that in that time I've met a large number of gaming men and women--and there are almost no notable differences on the general spectrum that arise from their sex.

Women players vary as much as men players, and often over the exact same things.

Current game groups

Group 1: Renee (f), Cecil (m), Casey (m), Kevin (m), Jeremy (m)
 
Group 2: Jodi (f), September (f), Larry (m), Wes (m), Chris (m), "Chu" (m)


I also have a sister (Jae) I've gamed with regularly until the last couple of years and a niece (Ariana) who plays when I run things for her and her brother.


Never mind all the others brought into groups over the years.