I'm not talking about the frequency of art in a book (1 piece per 4 pages being the average), but I'm talking about the quality of it.
How imporant is the artwork to you when deciding to purchase that book you haven't played before?
For me, I think it's pretty important. When I scan through various books, I find myself gravitated towards those with better artwork than those that might have a more sound system. In fact, that's where I spend the overwhelming budget for my games. In fact, I spent nearly $1000 on artwork for a game that I sell for free. And the game I'm working on now, I've spent close to $2000 on it so far just for artwork.
Thoughts?
Artwork is crucial--and so is the fact that it's distinctive, which is different from technical virtuosity. For me 1E will always be the idol on the PHB and the Tom Wham cartoons in the DMG.
I don't think it's a particularly good way to judge how playable a game is. But then I've closed the deal on getting someone to play a game just by showing them the book. But it was some pretty damn good art, full colour glossy pages, and everywhere in the book.
The power of appropriate art to evoke setting is hard to overstake.
Quote from: Pierce InverarityArtwork is crucial--and so is the fact that it's distinctive, which is different from technical virtuosity. For me 1E will always be the idol on the PHB and the Tom Wham cartoons in the DMG.
It's funny you mention Tom Wham. I too liked that so much (the artwork was sub-par technically, but the theme and feel was great), that I used a similar tactic in Altus and Bleeding Sky. I've got about a half dozen or so small "comic" style pieces throughout the book (Altus) in chronological order in similar vein to the old 1e DM's Guide. Even though BS isn't done yet, I've got the same thing going in that one too.
Yeah, if I'm looking at a game "cold", the artwork seems to help quite a bit drawing me in and getting me to look at it seriously. And I also agree that it's not so much the technical quality as the distinctiveness. I'd add that the irrelevance of technical quality extends to reproduction--for me, personally, glossy full-color pages don't add much if anything to the attraction. But technical quality does matter in terms of, shall we say, maturity of style, the assurance with which the artist applies ink to paper. Much of the art in The Riddle of Steel is awful, same with Mythic (not that there aren't exceptions), not because it's out of proportion or whatever, but because the artists didn't have the courage of their convictions.
RPGs have art?
-clash
Quote from: flyingmiceRPGs have art?
Some do.
Others have... illustrations. :haw:
Artwork doesn't have an impact on the books I purchase. It might, however, affect how I play the game. Generally speaking, building exteriors, building interiors, isometric views of town, major setting events, and sometimes artwork of terrain have the biggest impact on how I play. Individual characters in a pose, or in a mock combat usually have no impact on how I play.
Quote from: flyingmiceRPGs have art?
-clash
Some. Some also have works of fiction sprinkled in. Surely you've heard rumours of this? ;)
Most of the time, I'll ignore a book if the art sucks, no matter how good the rules set might be. I don't examine why, but there you go....
If the game is one I'm not too terribly passionate about, then I'd like the art to be, at least, passable.
Take Blood of Heroes for instance. While I was keenly interested in seeing the whole MEGS thing, the art in that book was downright horrible and I could never, ever manage to read that thing because I was constantly looking at that hideous artwork.
On the other hand, I am okay with some of the art in the old LUG Star Trek stuff which, to me, is not very well done. However, I enjoy science fiction above all, so I could let it slide.
Quote from: DwightSome. Some also have works of fiction sprinkled in. Surely you've heard rumours of this? ;)
Fiction, yes, and illustrations. But art? Never! :D
-clash
I'm a sucker for good art. I bought Earthdawn based upon the art. Now, i keep coming back to HEX because I can't stop looking at the art.
Quote from: AosI'm a sucker for good art. I bought Earthdawn based upon the art. .
So did I. And to this date I've never played it.
I don't care about art, at all. It's window dressing. Some of my favourite systems have very little art work.
Quote from: flyingmiceFiction, yes, and illustrations. But art? Never! :D
-clash
I know you're being facetious, but "art" is a catch all term for anything that isn't copy. In the newspaper biz, we call photographs, "art."
Quote from: KazI know you're being facetious, but "art" is a catch all term for anything that isn't copy. In the newspaper biz, we call photographs, "art."
In the game publishing business, we also call illos "art." I personally prefer the term "illos" or "illustrations" but I am indeed being facetious here. :D
-clash
OK, so now we know most folks think art is pretty important. With that said, can I get opinions on two of the pieces I was planning on using, and let me know if these are something that would catch your eye while browsing through books
(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g141/rajzwaibel/bleeding_sky_cover2.jpg)
(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g141/rajzwaibel/bleedingearth-final.jpg)
It's about context. Surely these are not two options for the same book? The picture speaks, is it talking in unison with the rest of the book?
EDIT: On a more personal level the top picture looks like action [about to happen], and it's got some creepy hide-and-seek things going on. I like the slightly fuzzy look to it. If I saw that I'd pick up the book and give you a look.
The bottom to me strikes me as posing. I'm not big on posing. Or orange sky. It doesn't look like a game I'd get into. That could be ok if you were going for surreal tone with your game? It just isn't me, and I'm not the one to judge it.
Classic Traveller has no art whatsoever, and it's an awesome game that lots of people still play.
BESM 1e had eye-bleedingly bad art crammed in a pathetic little 90-page pamphlet, and yet it still managed to be pretty darn popular for a good long time before management missteps sank the company.
Palladium has been basically reusing the same, often terrible illustrations for decades now and for much of it's lifespan was the number 3 game company in the world.
White Wolf took leave of it's senses sometime around the release of WtA 2e and decided all of it's art should be bad anime fan art pastiche of Chang Wufei from Gundam Wing, but they managed to survive it anyway.
A lot of the art in the earlier D&D era was frankly terrible, despite the popular nostalgia for it, but that didn't seem to stop it from becoming a massive cultural sensation. Shit, even the art in the cartoon was bad.
From this, I can only conclude that art means fuck all. IT's nice when it's there, and I can't imagine some games without it, like Gamma World for instance, but it's not really as important as the internet geeks would have you believe I think.
Quote from: DwightIt's about context. Surely these are not two options for the same book? The picture speaks, is it talking in unison with the rest of the book?
EDIT: On a more personal level the top picture looks like action [about to happen], and it's got some creepy hide-and-seek things going on. I like the slightly fuzzy look to it. If I saw that I'd pick up the book and give you a look.
The bottom to me strikes me as posing. I'm not big on posing. Or orange sky. It doesn't look like a game I'd get into. That could be ok if you were going for surreal tone with your game? It just isn't me, and I'm not the one to judge it.
They are both for the same system, but for different books. The bottom one is the main rulebook, and the top one is a supplement.
For me, when it comes to settings it's pretty important. The artwork in WFRP 1E and Jorune seals the deal as to why I really dig those settings. Writing comes first, of course - In Harms Way. Then again I really like systems like BESM and OtE for example where art is not a factor at all.
Regards,
David R
If I am downloading a product that is never going to get printed up, I don't care if there is art or not.
If I am going to buy a book product, art for me is very much a welcome feature. Like Aos, I bought Earthdawn just for the art and (though the art internally varied greatly) I can still tell you the name of the artist of the pieces I liked the most (Janet Aulisio) but I couldn't tell you who wrote the system.
Mind you, I bought HoL, so I guess what I am saying it does effect my purchases but not all of them.
The adage "You can't judge a book by its cover" certainly applies to RPGs and it would be a shame to miss out on a great game just because of sub-par art.
That said, art is still relatively important in setting the tone of the rules, and in leaving that first impression when you crack that book open the first time. Although it certainly isn't the be-all, end-all when making a purchase- at least not for me.
If the setting intrigues me enough and I like the rules, I can overlook bad art.
However, to more than enough people art is significant enough such that a game designer is probably well-advised to go for high quality artwork in his products.
EDIT: Actually a much more important criterion for me is good and clear writing.. moreso than good art.
Quote from: David RFor me, when it comes to settings it's pretty important. The artwork in WFRP 1E and Jorune seals the deal as to why I really dig those settings.
I think the art in those books is pretty essential as
illustrating the text. By which I mean, it gives you a visual picture of what's being described.
Art in general has three purposes. The first is to make you say, "cool!" and pick the book up and buy it. The second is to convey a mood or feeling, jokey, serious, whatever. The third is to
illustrate, to make something clear. So for example despite what J_Arcane said, classic
Traveller does have a few illustrations, drawings of vehicles and so on.
When describing something far out of people's everyday experience, and perhaps difficult to imagine just with words, illustrations are useful. This could be technical sorts of things like the layout of a military base, or it could be alien creatures.
Quote from: Kyle AaronI think the art in those books is pretty essential as illustrating the text. By which I mean, it gives you a visual picture of what's being described.
Very true. I suppose the same could be said for
Dark Sun and
Planescape.
Regards,
David R
I'm not saying art is something by which I judge a game, in fact I think the idea of critiquing the art in more than a cursory fashion in a review is silly, but I can't deny the effect it has--with Talislanta, Waste World, Secret of Zir'an, art definitely helped get their foot in the door with me. (Well, Tal's art by P.D. Breeding-Black really is great by itself.)
Anyway to answer the new question, the first piece might get my attention; I'm not crazy about the style but the scene is interesting. The second would turn me off--generic fantasy posing as far as I'm concerned.
Quote from: Acta Est FabulaI'm not talking about the frequency of art in a book (1 piece per 4 pages being the average), but I'm talking about the quality of it.
How imporant is the artwork to you when deciding to purchase that book you haven't played before?
The quality of the artwork is more important that the quality, in my opinion. And if the book is going to be black and white or a PDF intended to be printed on B&W laser printers, then please use black and white line art rather than color art converted to grayscale. Color art rendered in black and white usually looks awful, in my opinion.
Yes and no. First things first, when people say "good" art, they often mean high production values and glossy full-color shit. I likes me some punchy high-contrast low-detail B&W. John Sloane, Mike Mignola (if it is color, that likewise punchy blocky look is where it's at), most of manga (I don't get why anime style illustrations would be in color... like... EVER), some of the old X&Y splatbooks from 3e, the recycled chibi-demons in Fiend Folio (3x FF) and other books, etc. Some of the old school stuff falls under a similar category for me... though some of it I still can't come to terms with. I think... I think I remember being impressed with the catoblepas?
Anyway, art is important for drawing my eye, as I got into RPGs to begin with inspired by the illustrations in the MMII (3e).
As for your stuff... I prefer the green dudes. The other one with the posers is a little odd. One of the dudes looks constipated more than anything. For a poser pic, I'd recommend putting the dudes further in the foreground, making the foreground "U"mountains or something, making the sky neon pink, and putting like four moons up there... you were going for old school Heavy Metal, I hope? Oh, and just have the people walking in a line.
QuoteSo for example despite what J_Arcane said, classic Traveller does have a few illustrations, drawings of vehicles and so on.
The only "illustrations" are a couple of diagrams explaining the sector design rules, and one of the "football field" range band system for combat. There are no "drawings of vehicles" anywhere in the books.
Quote from: J ArcaneThe only "illustrations" are a couple of diagrams explaining the sector design rules, and one of the "football field" range band system for combat. There are no "drawings of vehicles" anywhere in the books.
Looking at my funny-shaped reprint of LBB0-8, I find,
Book 3: Worlds and Adventurers, p20, vehicles.
Book4: Mercenary, p0, "Mercenary Striker", basically a soldier.
Book 7: Merchant Prince, p0, uncaptioned drawing of a ship being un/loaded with wooden crates.
p33, uncaptioned image of what looks like a crewman dealing with customs, with starport, starship and planetoid in background
Book 8: Robots, p8, uncaptioned drawing of somewhatcrab-like robot blazing away with laser.
p52, uncaptioned drawing of robot cleaner
It's certainly true that the drawings are very sparse, and seem to be whacked in as an afterthought rather than specifically drawn to be part of the final product. And five for eight books is very few indeed. But they do exist.
I love a bit of art. It gives me a thrill to see lovely pictures when buying a book. As for writing games, I'm obsessed with filling Icar with tonnes of art. It means the books take longer to do but I get a kick out of making the images and I think the pictures help set the scenes.
I just need to lean how to render people properly!
Quote from: Rob LangI love a bit of art. It gives me a thrill to see lovely pictures when buying a book. As for writing games, I'm obsessed with filling Icar with tonnes of art. It means the books take longer to do but I get a kick out of making the images and I think the pictures help set the scenes.
I just need to lean how to render people properly!
I want to punch you. You and your cool,
FREE, rpg.;)
Seriously though, I need to take some time and prepare an Icar campaign.
Good art can sell a shitty game. The original Judge Dredd RPG sold out at the Games Day it was launched because of good artwork (well and a loved theme) The system was dire.
Bad art can turn people off a good game and a good game is better with no art that bad art.
The 2 illustrations are both good quality well produced and drawn with some degree of skill. They will enhance any book even if there might be some who say I don't like the style of that drawing that is unlikely to put them off buying it because the drawings are not offensively bad (like 1e AD&D or those monads in MM2 (or was it FF????) .
I think the original games could escape with bad art because of the market and the target audience. Take MtG some of the illustrations in the Alpha and Beta, which even made it to Unlimited are truely awful, Julie Barrow's Kolbolds .... or Iron Root Tree Folk, and there is no way they would be accepted in a 'modern' release but compared to the playtest cards which were just white bits of card with 'Lightning Bolt' or 'Elvish archer' written on them ...
And well done on the pedantry of the Traveller illustrations sub-thread ... excellent work.
I should probably stop doing any illos. People either love them or hate them - which is not a good thing, they aren't standard RPG line drawings, and there's no heavily mucled men or overendowed women. I think they confuse people. Then we'd find out if people will in fact buy an un-illustrated game, and if no illos are better than bad illos. Of course if my intuition is right, and bad illos are in fact better than no illos, I'm out of business... :O
-clash
Quote from: flyingmiceThen we'd find out if people will in fact buy an un-illustrated game, and if no illos are better than bad illos. Of course if my intuition is right, and bad illos are in fact better than no illos, I'm out of business... :O
You sell PDF and print-on-demand games, right?
Do an experiment. Produce a no-illustration version and see how it sells.
Quote from: flyingmiceI should probably stop doing any illos. People either love them or hate them - which is not a good thing, they aren't standard RPG line drawings, and there's no heavily mucled men or overendowed women. I think they confuse people. Then we'd find out if people will in fact buy an un-illustrated game, and if no illos are better than bad illos. Of course if my intuition is right, and bad illos are in fact better than no illos, I'm out of business... :O
-clash
See, I disagree Clash, your art is appropriate to your games. People are fond of the "no art better than bad art" but I am more in line with "Appropriate art is more important than great art". I use a fair amount of clip art in my games. Some people can;t stand this but my point is to 1) Set the mood and 2) illustrate a point in the text. If my point was to decorate the book, I would be failing horribly. ;) That said, I also cheat and mix originals in there as well.
Now, from a marketing point of view? Hell, we should all be doing full color glossy books. Marketing is not everything though. We need to look at our expected returns, property placement, fan base, the condition of the industry and a slew of other points that should be in your BP. Thus, a lot of us end up with various types of art. Does your art address your goals? Does it pull your clients in? Is it even part of your marketing? My guess is, your games are marketed on system, historical veracity and military/technical veracity. Your illustration come into play with maps, detailed char sheets and descriptive tables. Some folks forget how important that stuff is.
Bill
Quote from: HinterWeltSee, I disagree Clash, your art is appropriate to your games. People are fond of the "no art better than bad art" but I am more in line with "Appropriate art is more important than great art". I use a fair amount of clip art in my games. Some people can;t stand this but my point is to 1) Set the mood and 2) illustrate a point in the text. If my point was to decorate the book, I would be failing horribly. ;) That said, I also cheat and mix originals in there as well.
Understood.
QuoteNow, from a marketing point of view? Hell, we should all be doing full color glossy books. Marketing is not everything though. We need to look at our expected returns, property placement, fan base, the condition of the industry and a slew of other points that should be in your BP. Thus, a lot of us end up with various types of art. Does your art address your goals?
My illos attempt to show the setting. Hopefully I succeed some of the time, but I'm not the one who can judge that.
QuoteDoes it pull your clients in?
Perhaps. I get equal amounts of love and hate for the illos, so it seems to pull some in and push others away.
QuoteIs it even part of your marketing?
Yes, in that I always include illos in the marketing. Other than that, no.
QuoteMy guess is, your games are marketed on system, historical veracity and military/technical veracity. Your illustration come into play with maps, detailed char sheets and descriptive tables. Some folks forget how important that stuff is.
Bill
That isn't really in question. Maps and technical diagrams are vital to most any game. I don't consider them to be illos in the sense most folks are talking about here.
-clash
Quote from: flyingmiceThat isn't really in question. Maps and technical diagrams are vital to most any game. I don't consider them to be illos in the sense most folks are talking about here.
-clash
And I guess that is the point. People should really be considering it as part of the illustrations, the art describing the setting.
But, that could just be my take on it.
Bill
Quote from: JohnnyWannabeI want to punch you. You and your cool, FREE, rpg.;)
Seriously though, I need to take some time and prepare an Icar campaign.
Between Rob and Marco, these excellent
FREE games are ruining our exploitative businesses!
(Lights torch and grabs pitchfork)
Let's end this thing now. Here!
-clash
Quote from: flyingmiceIn the game publishing business, we also call illos "art." I personally prefer the term "illos" or "illustrations" but I am indeed being facetious here. :D
-clash
When I started reading RPG forums in English, I was puzzled by the fact that everybody call illustrations "art". I adjusted, of course, and I say art when I mean illustrations, but in my native language I'd never say art when referring to illos, it would sound wrong.
I will note, however, that while I think that over all, art/illustration means fuck all as far as most of the public is concerned, my personal take is different. For me, I'd rather no art at all than bad art, because frankly, it puts me off the game pretty quickly. Makes it hard to get into the setting, and it tends to make me wonder what other aspects of the game have taken shortcuts when it comes to quality.
I'm a firm believer in the idea that if you can't do something right, don't do it at all.
Quote from: Acta Est FabulaI'm not talking about the frequency of art in a book (1 piece per 4 pages being the average), but I'm talking about the quality of it.
How imporant is the artwork to you when deciding to purchase that book you haven't played before?
Art is not an important factor to me when deciding whether to buy a game, at least I think so. That said, I like good art a lot. A lot. It's a pleasure to see a nicely illustrated game. It doesn't mean I'm a lover of full color candy, on the contrary, I prefer black and white art to full color art, full color tends to repel me (Artesia is the exception that confirms the rule). Examples of, in my opinion, great art in RPGs? Ars Magica 3rd and HARP. The art in these two games is gorgeous. No need for full color, just good art.
Hmmmm. Some interesting things to think about. As a point of comparison, let me also post some of the interior "illios" ;)
I'd be curious to hear folks' reactions. Of course I have many more, but these give an idea of the different styles
(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g141/rajzwaibel/BlisterAgent.jpg)
(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g141/rajzwaibel/NatureFinal.jpg)
(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g141/rajzwaibel/NorthenWastesDrifter.jpg)
(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g141/rajzwaibel/SoldierFinal.jpg)
(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g141/rajzwaibel/VinesFINAL.jpg)
(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g141/rajzwaibel/canopydog.jpg)
(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g141/rajzwaibel/powerplantBW.jpg)
As an artist myself, I find the distinction between art and illustration interesting as mentioned here.
I was scoffed at in college for wanting to illustrate comics and games. It was clearly considered "low art", and to gain the degree I was after I had to become accomplished at "high art" such as painting and sculpting. It was a very ego driven environment of elitists and their pride. I did not appreciate it. My heart was still with the Jim Lee/Scott Williams comics I cut my teeth on in the late '80s and early '90s. I later discovered more classic artists (yeah, I said it) who are far to numerous to mention here.
I have found through developing my own products, being around others, being a consumer and gamer myself, and just watching people that many people (I would even assert 75% or so) are very visual. If you can sell them on a great cover that draws them into the game world, they will buy your book. One of my first loves (and still my favorite game of all time) was DarkSun from TSR. The concepts were wild and fresh (to me), and just alien enough to be interesting in a dark fantasy type of way, but the artwork of Gerald Brom stole my heart and imagination. I barely saw the other artwork in the products, and focussed entirely on Brom's vision, which then became my own view of the world, and still is to this day. My sketches of DarkSun still mimic his style a great deal.
The artwork and/or illustrations of a game setting can and should tell the story of the world without the reader ever having to read a word, but it should also compel the viewer to want to read the story/text to learn more about it. If this does not happen, then the artwork has failed, and so will the game most likely.
Can a game exist and be successful without images to support it? Absolutely, but you (typically) will be hitting a niche market of readers and writers, and miss out on those visual types like myself and many others.
(Of course, the writing skill of the production/design team determines and skews a lot of this, right?)
Btw, Acta Est Fabula, those images present a wide range of styles, but it all seems to work together to tell something of the setting. Nice stuff.
Acta, those images are great. Perhaps with a bit of context that you'd find in the game book, they'd mean more but to my untutored eyes, they look spendid. The scratchy gas mask fellow is my favourite. It's a very dark and energetic look.
Quote from: flyingmiceBetween Rob and Marco, these excellent FREE games are ruining our exploitative businesses!
(Lights torch and grabs pitchfork)
heh heh. Being free, we're not competing at all! If it really offends you, I might start selling it, just to enter direct competition. Then see how you feel! :) (just kidding, never going to sell it).
I think good art can really add to the feel of the game. But I also have an eye for practicality. Like the D&D Monster Manual books that give illustrations of all the monsters. It's a utilitarian thing. It lets you see what the monster looks like.
As for feel, I think it should match the game. For instance, a lot of people complained that Christopher Shy's art was not right for Transhuman Space.
I think the art for Encounter Critical is perfect for that game, however.
Brian
I think the art for Risus was also perfect. :D
(http://www.io.com/~sjohn/uresius-chef.gif)
-clash
Whether the artwork is technically good or bad it has to inspire me to create something. I love concept sketches because they force the viewer to complete the idea or take aspects of the work that entertain them to creation. I love professional artists doodle work because of the mass amount of elements they are playing with.