this past weekend i was walking around The Wawel in Krakow, and i saw all these different sorts of armor. some were chain mail, some were plate mail, etc etc. none were magic, of course.

it seemed to me that some of the armor which was less protective in DND terms was better made than that which was mechanically more protective. so it got me thinking... why is chain mail better than a breastplate?

so i've come up with a new way to do armor, and i want to know what you all think of it.

You have four basic categories of armor, clothes, light, medium, heavy (as well as shields).

Each category of armor has a basic AC value. For example, lets say light armor has a basic +2 AC value. Then, we have different levels of (non-magical) quality.

Light Armor
Poor Quality +1 AC
Normal Quality +2 AC
Good Quality +3 AC
Excellent Quality +4 AC
Amazing Quality +5 AC
Supreme Quality +6 AC

For medium armor, say the Normal AC bonus would be +4 or +5. Then, you can call the armor type whatever you want, be it scale, or ring, or chain, or whatever.

Anyway, this is a half formed thought, let me know if it is worth pursuing.

I think in a none magical campaign world it might be a good idea, but the idea of Supreme Quality leather armour (AC 6), then having a magical enhancement bonus is scary.

Personally if I was going the non magical root I'ld introduce armour bonuses vs various types of weapons, like they had as an optional rule in 2nd Ed.

I really like the thought of simplifying armor to "Light" "Medium" and "Heavy" and throwing aside all those annoying rules that make everybody pick the same armor each time.

You could describe your armor however you wanted, but it would still fit in one of those categories.

Here's how I'd stat them, in D&D terms:

Light Armor:
AC bonus +2
Max Dex +6
Armor Check Penalty: -1
Arcane Spell Failure: 10%
Speed (30/20): 30'/20'
Weight: 10 lbs

Medium Armor:
AC bonus +5
Max Dex +3
Armor Check Penalty: -4
Arcane Spell Failure: 20%
Speed (30/20): 20'/15'
Weight: 30 lbs

Heavy Armor:
AC bonus: +10
Max Dex +0
Armor Check Penalty: -8
Arcane Spell Failure: 40%
Speed (30/20): 15'/10'

Quote from: Name LipsI really like the thought of simplifying armor to "Light" "Medium" and "Heavy" and throwing aside all those annoying rules that make everybody pick the same armor each time.

Of course, you'd probably have to do the same with weapons, then...  

Simplify them down to "Light", "One-handed", "Two-handed" and "Ranged".  Maybe with the damage types -- slashing, bludgeoning and piercing -- tossed in to boil it all down to just a dozen weapons.

Quote from: CyclotronOf course, you'd probably have to do the same with weapons, then...  

Simplify them down to "Light", "One-handed", "Two-handed" and "Ranged".  Maybe with the damage types -- slashing, bludgeoning and piercing -- tossed in to boil it all down to just a dozen weapons.

yeah. I want my one handed 2d6 18-20x3 criting weapon.

weapons are all over the place for that kind of reason.

Oddly this is how most other game systems work and it works really well.  Even Trued20 has simplified down the types.  Does it really mater if Conan picks up a katana, a falchion, a great sword, a bastard sword, a scimitar or an axe?  He's still going to kick your ass.

RPG's should be about style and character development and not about number crunching so that you get penalized because you want to use a foil over a rapier or a long sword.  Deadly is deadly and everything else in an RPG is only loosely based on realism so why they try to go into all this false detail with equipment lists is beyond me.

Personally I think Warhammer has about the right mix of balance you have a few armour types from leather to heavy plate and basically all the weapons do the same damage in a given class they just have little perks to make them stand out a bit.  The system alows the player to use a weapon to suite his image and still have full capacity.  He's not diminished by choosing to pick what he thinks is cool.

Quote from: Name LipsI really like the thought of simplifying armor to "Light" "Medium" and "Heavy" and throwing aside all those annoying rules that make everybody pick the same armor each time.

You could describe your armor however you wanted, but it would still fit in one of those categories.

Here's how I'd stat them, in D&D terms:

Light Armor:
AC bonus +2
Max Dex +6
Armor Check Penalty: -1
Arcane Spell Failure: 10%
Speed (30/20): 30'/20'
Weight: 10 lbs

Medium Armor:
AC bonus +5
Max Dex +3
Armor Check Penalty: -4
Arcane Spell Failure: 20%
Speed (30/20): 20'/15'
Weight: 30 lbs

Heavy Armor:
AC bonus: +10
Max Dex +0
Armor Check Penalty: -8
Arcane Spell Failure: 40%
Speed (30/20): 15'/10'

That's a good idea. Then you can have gradient levels of armor quality/enchantment that improves upon the AC bonuses given by those basic armor types (while unaffecting their given Max Dex Bonuses, Armor Check Penalties, etc.).

AC Bonus ... Cost Factor (to be multiplied by the armor type's base cost)
+1 ... Light: x4, Medium: x3, Heavy: x2
+2 ... Light: x8, Medium: x6, Heavy: x4
+3 ... Light: x16, Medium: x12, Heavy: x8
+4 ... Light: x32, Medium: x24, Heavy: x16

Why are the cost factors twice as much for light armor as they are for heavy? Because, for example, a +1 AC bonus for heavy armor is no big deal (you're only getting a 10% increase in AC), but for light armor, a +1 AC bonus is a big deal (you're getting a 50% increase in AC). Besides, the base cost for heavy armor will proably be around ten times the base cost for light armor.

sounds like people have some good stuff to contribute. i'm going to try to codify this so that it can be used.

as for working with magic bonuses... my solution is only allowing magic bonuses for specials (like glamored, fortification, etc) instead of AC bonuses.

This sort of abstraction is desireable if the 'emulation' is based on literary (including movies) sources.  You either have armor or you don't, and the cooler your armor, the better it protects, regardless of what it is actually made of.

I'm thinking of Frodo getting speared by the ogre. If he was wearing chain armor of any type, no matter how cool, his breastbone met his spine. The armor might be untouched but...  obviously the nature of the armor is unimporatnt, waht is important is that it is 'very good armor'.


It may not be very 'realistic'... though I'm startign to think realism isn't such a good thing anymore compared to playable fun... then again, most games (D&D is the very gold standard here...) aren't particularly realistic anyway.

Have you guys seen Perfect 20 and True 20's Land of the Crane? There are some armor & equipment rules there you might like...

I've seen the true20 stuff, and I think I've seen the perfect 20 stuff at some point, though it steadfastly refuses to stick in my crowded brain.

I dunno, somehow the toughness save concept seems incredibly cool, yet incredibly stupid at the same time. Maybe it's the application. D&D's armor is just wrong, so I do tend to look around at other options.

Quote from: SpikeI've seen the true20 stuff, and I think I've seen the perfect 20 stuff at some point, though it steadfastly refuses to stick in my crowded brain.

I dunno, somehow the toughness save concept seems incredibly cool, yet incredibly stupid at the same time. Maybe it's the application. D&D's armor is just wrong, so I do tend to look around at other options.

Perfect20, if I remember correctly, uses more generic breakdowns, instead of listing specific weapons and such.

Levi just might be able to answer more precisely, of course...

AC bonus and overcomeable DR.
Leather and padding armors overcome by piercing.
Chain and whatnot overcome by bludgeoning.
Plate and such overcome by slashing.

Bigger and better armor has bigger and better AC bonuses, so don't tell me you'd rather have leather than fullplate against a longsword here.

DR and AC values to be found in the armor as DR variant in Unearthed Arcana.

The system has worked well enough for me thus far.

Quote from: beejazzAC bonus and overcomeable DR.
Leather and padding armors overcome by piercing.
Chain and whatnot overcome by bludgeoning.
Plate and such overcome by slashing.

Bigger and better armor has bigger and better AC bonuses, so don't tell me you'd rather have leather than fullplate against a longsword here.

DR and AC values to be found in the armor as DR variant in Unearthed Arcana.

The system has worked well enough for me thus far.

You know, I ran the Unearthed Arcana DR rules for a campaign once. Worked fine until I started bringing in monsters, then my campaign prep time trebled as I had to fucking revamp every god damn critter teh party might want to fight, if I didn't one of two things happened, the party walked all over the badguys unscated do to their ridiculous (in comparsion) DR, or the critter walked all over them.  The Unearthed arcana stuff, for the most part, was excellent. In fact a lot of it should have been default design elements (weapon groups, armor as DR, stuff like that).  Trying to throw some of that shit in later proved so 'involved' that I might as well have been playing an entirely different game from teh start.


As for Leather armor vs. Longswords... my understanding is that a boiled leather breastplate was just as effective as a steel breastplate, but actually more time consumbing to make, not to mention not as attractive.  Perhaps when compared to later steel armors leather loses out, but by itself?

I mean, have you ever actually tried to cut through 16oz leather? that's not even cuir boille (sp? I hate french words, damnit), that's just cured cowhide.  That shit is TOUGH.

Quote from: SpikeYou know, I ran the Unearthed Arcana DR rules for a campaign once. Worked fine until I started bringing in monsters, then my campaign prep time trebled as I had to fucking revamp every god damn critter teh party might want to fight, if I didn't one of two things happened, the party walked all over the badguys unscated do to their ridiculous (in comparsion) DR, or the critter walked all over them.  The Unearthed arcana stuff, for the most part, was excellent. In fact a lot of it should have been default design elements (weapon groups, armor as DR, stuff like that).  Trying to throw some of that shit in later proved so 'involved' that I might as well have been playing an entirely different game from teh start.


As for Leather armor vs. Longswords... my understanding is that a boiled leather breastplate was just as effective as a steel breastplate, but actually more time consumbing to make, not to mention not as attractive.  Perhaps when compared to later steel armors leather loses out, but by itself?

I mean, have you ever actually tried to cut through 16oz leather? that's not even cuir boille (sp? I hate french words, damnit), that's just cured cowhide.  That shit is TOUGH.

Glad to see my system got any attention. I am, I have to admit, an attention whore, especially in regards to mechanical criticism.

To answer your concerns:
1)It fit in my campaign. Then again, I used primarily humanoids and other intelligent creatures, who usually wore armor, had class levels, etc.
2)I used multiple rules from UA. Defense prog, which stacked with armor. Vitality/wounds, without the stunning (nausea instead) and extra damage dice being applied to vitality regardless of crits, weapon groups (with firearms under exotic crossbows, among other changes),etc,etc,etc.
3)With all those rules mods, armor was just a drop in the bucket. In any case, it was still easier than writing my own system... and cheaper, more reliable, and easier to find (without internet access) than third party work.
4)Leather full plate is still full plate. Leather armor of any kind as maneuverable as that described in the PHB has got to be softened at the joints, and may not even be full-body. If someone asked for leather full plate, I'd give them fullplate and call it leather.

For an almost full description of my rules...
http://www.thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?12244