So, to take off from the another discussion over on our boards. What if we made combat a "degree of success". That is to say, an armors "Armor Mod" now becomes the amount you need to hit by to pierce armor. This would be in addition to armors normal ablative nature.

Example:
Defender: DEF 18, Armor: Chain AM: -2

Attacker: + to hit: +4

Attack: Rolls a 17 with a mod to 21. He hits buy 3 piercing the armor. This means 1/2 of the damage goes to the armor and 1/2 to the character. Say, a 2-hander at 30 points of damage, this would mean 15 to the flesh and 15 to the armor.

Alternatively, use the remaining points as a base. So, if the Chain is fresh, it protect an armor piercing for 15. If it is damaged to 20, it protects for 10.

Alternate-alternate, armor protects for 1/2 its full value so chain would always protect for 15 until the areas was destroyed. This effectively makes the heavier armors proof against piercing attacks of smaller weapons. A dagger just is not going to make it through.

Something to think about. I am worried a bit about over complicating combat. Merf.

Bill

Hi Bill!

You know my ideas on weapons and armor are heretical and insidious, and the Gun Nazi Inquisitors will hunt you down and put you to the rack if you even looked at them. However, I took out everything they object to and will post the result for you:

!,,.? ""! ..,"":"",',?'

Hope that helps!

-clash

I think I prefer armor to absorb damage. So you have to do X damage to get through armor. (Despite havng tried the armor damage thing in past designs, I think its really too much bookkeeping for me these days.)

Well, see, one thing I wonder about is using damage reduction. It would mean rewriting all the armor values and maybe adjusting the weapon damages but I have been thinking about that anyway.

Clash, dammit!!@@#$$%%%^$(*& Your opinions are quite acceptable in this thread. I could give a crap what others think!!!! So, even if it is not specific to the way Iridium Armor works, let me know your thoughts.

Silverlion, thanks! I imagine a lot of this comes from my "trad" roots. I prefer concrete systems to abstractions.

Bill

Don't give me that touchy feelie crap - clash crosses the line and I report him to the proper authorities

I like it all Bill; but then, I could see where in play this could get cumbersome. If the numbers are easy, you might get away with it.

Ok..on further reading, I don't like the 1/2 part at the end. It negates the earlier.  I could see someone succeeding so well with a dagger (that one in a million shot) that it slips by the plate and digs deeply into the flesh of the haughty knight.

Man I need to get back to work.

Maybe give each suit of armor an "armor rating" which both blocks hitpoint damage and decreases over time.

So a suit of armor with an armor rating of 20 would block 20 points of damage from each hit (so if the wearer is hit for 32 damage, they only take 12).

However, you could have the armor rating decrease by 1 for every 10 points of damage that get through. (So the guy in the previous example got hit for 32 damage. He subtracts his armor rating of 20 and 12 damage gets through... since at least 10 damage got through his armor, his armor rating drops to 19. If he is then hit for 41 damage he subtracts his new armor rating of 19 and 22 points of damage get through, droping his armor rating to 17. Later he visits a blacksmith and has his armor repaired, taking his armor rating back up to its original value of 20).

Quote from: ConanMKMaybe give each suit of armor an "armor rating" which both blocks hitpoint damage and decreases over time.

So a suit of armor with an armor rating of 20 would block 20 points of damage from each hit (so if the wearer is hit for 32 damage, they only take 12).

However, you could have the armor rating decrease by 1 for every 10 points of damage that get through. (So the guy in the previous example got hit for 32 damage. He subtracts his armor rating of 20 and 12 damage gets through... since at least 10 damage got through his armor, his armor rating drops to 19. If he is then hit for 41 damage he subtracts his new armor rating of 19 and 22 points of damage get through, droping his armor rating to 17. Later he visits a blacksmith and has his armor repaired, taking his armor rating back up to its original value of 20).

See, I wonder if it should be simpler than that even. Just say, 1 point drop for every successful hit. This way, a dagger which is unlikely to ever make it through, can still decrease the armor's protection. Still, in your example, it would mean the more power the armor, the less likely to be damaged by minor attacks. I could see both ways.

Bill

Quote from: HinterWeltSee, I wonder if it should be simpler than that even. Just say, 1 point drop for every successful hit. This way, a dagger which is unlikely to ever make it through, can still decrease the armor's protection. Still, in your example, it would mean the more power the armor, the less likely to be damaged by minor attacks. I could see both ways.

Bill

Or you could go a route between the two, and have the armor rating reduced by one every time any damage gets through to the target.

Just tossing out some ideas.

Quote from: ConanMKOr you could go a route between the two, and have the armor rating reduced by one every time any damage gets through to the target.

Just tossing out some ideas.

See, that has merit. It would reinforce big weapons vs armor but then a dagger or a short sword becomes nigh useless.

What I would like is something close to what you said. Something like taking the tens column and decreasing the armor by that. So, if you do 15 points, it would reduce the armor by 1, but 25 would reduce by 2. Would that be too confusing? It seems easy enough on the surface but not very intuitive.

Thanks,
Bill

Quote from: HinterWeltSee, that has merit. It would reinforce big weapons vs armor but then a dagger or a short sword becomes nigh useless.

You can always have a sort of "finess attack" option that lets you take a penalty to hit in order to bypas armor.

Quote from: HinterWeltWhat I would like is something close to what you said. Something like taking the tens column and decreasing the armor by that. So, if you do 15 points, it would reduce the armor by 1, but 25 would reduce by 2. Would that be too confusing? It seems easy enough on the surface but not very intuitive.

Thanks,
Bill

Works fine for me. As long as it is explained well in the game text I don't think it is too terribly counter-intuitive either.

Quote from: ConanMKYou can always have a sort of "finess attack" option that lets you take a penalty to hit in order to bypas armor.

See, I just am not sure. I have always avoided this since we have Targeting already in place. I see the logic but I will have to let it sink in, maybe play a few session with it. I really have no systemic reason to dislike it but it just does not "feel" right.

Quote from: ConanMKWorks fine for me. As long as it is explained well in the game text I don't think it is too terribly counter-intuitive either.

I have to say, it is a rework of the system, but damage reduction is looking like the leader.

Bill

Quote from: HinterWeltSee, I just am not sure. I have always avoided this since we have Targeting already in place. I see the logic but I will have to let it sink in, maybe play a few session with it. I really have no systemic reason to dislike it but it just does not "feel" right.

I have to say, it is a rework of the system, but damage reduction is looking like the leader.

Bill

One thing I always liked about Alternity is that it did "armor as damage reduction" but instead of armor having a static damage reduction rating, it had variable damage reduction rolled on dice. (ex: you her hit for 5 damage and your armor blocks 1d6 damage, so it might absorb it all, or only part of it.)

Disadvantages: This adds another roll

Advantages: Do to the variability in damage and armor absorbtion a guy with a dagger (say 1d4 +1 damage) still has a chance of damaging someone in heavy armor (say 1d6+1 damage reduction).

In Iridium the numbers will be considerably higher, but you could apply the same idea if you don't mind the extra dice rolling.

Quote from: ConanMKOne thing I always liked about Alternity is that it did "armor as damage reduction" but instead of armor having a static damage reduction rating, it had variable damage reduction rolled on dice. (ex: you her hit for 5 damage and your armor blocks 1d6 damage, so it might absorb it all, or only part of it.)

Disadvantages: This adds another roll

Advantages: Do to the variability in damage and armor absorbtion a guy with a dagger (say 1d4 +1 damage) still has a chance of damaging someone in heavy armor (say 1d6+1 damage reduction).

In Iridium the numbers will be considerably higher, but you could apply the same idea if you don't mind the extra dice rolling.

Hmm, I get enough complaints about "math" in the Iridium system as is. I can only imagine what the playtesters would think about this.

Here is an idea that a guy over on our forums threw out. It has a lot of merit I just do not know if it would be...Iridium-like.

You have x points of armor. So, for example, 5 points. Someone hits you with a zwei-hander for 5d10. You spend 4 points of armor to reduce the damage dice to 1d10 and another 1 point to reduce it by die type to 1d8. So, the attacker goes from dealing 5d10 to your noggin to 1d8 + STR bonus.

Disadvantages: Makes combat even MORE lethal than it already is. Essentially, one knock to the head (considering STR bonuses of some races) would kill event he strongest person.

Advantages: It nicely addresses the "Armor is a wall letting no damage through until it suddenly doesn't" issue.

Thanks,
Bill

IMHO, Bill, you have better options already on the table - particularly getting into adjusting damage dice types, etc.

What is it, exactly, that you're trying to model? Maybe that would help me get centered because I feel like I'm all over the board (no pun intended).

Quote from: James J SkachIMHO, Bill, you have better options already on the table - particularly getting into adjusting damage dice types, etc.

What is it, exactly, that you're trying to model? Maybe that would help me get centered because I feel like I'm all over the board (no pun intended).

Well, two parts.

1. I would like to keep or decrease complexity of combat.

2. I would like to model impact damage from attacks. So, when someone is hit with a weapon, even if they are armored, it still hurts. As it stands, you have a wall of invulnerability up until you do not; i.e. FP of protection via armor until it is reduced to 0 when you suddenly start taking damage.


So, with 1 in mind, Linda and I were talking and came up with another idea.

One pool of FP, One pool of Armor FP, no hit locations, no targeting. When you are hit, you may record your damage location via a wounds location chart. So, you take the 1's place of your die roll and that is the location.

For example, your base Fortitude is now the amount to worry about. You have your (STR+CON+WIL)/3 +1/2 CON, say 25 FP. You are wearing Chain for 30. When you are hit for 42 points, you would take 30 off reducing armor to 0, and apply 12 to your FP. Should you wish, the attacker rolled a 19 to hit you and the wound location would be you 9 or left leg.

For the record, Linda thinks I am crazy and that there is nothing wrong with the armor/combat rules. She also thinks the idea of Damage Reduction where armor decreases 1 point for every hit is too much book keeping.

Bill