I agree that there is a use/place for character history and resource expenditure for same. I disagree that they should be mixed up with things 'learned'.

Quote from: SpikeI agree that there is a use/place for character history and resource expenditure for same. I disagree that they should be mixed up with things 'learned'.

Agreed - so the question becomes, for me spike, how do you encourage the kinds of daring creative things, like "I'm going to ride by and shoot two arrows while standing in the saddle" without Improved Riding or Many Shot?

Like I said in the D20 Haven thread, I started out thinking of making them class features.  But your posts have made me rethink it along the lines of additions to skills.  So if I have 10 levels of Archery, I can do Many Shot, or Rapid Shot - so tie the feats to the skills with which they are associated.

Cool. I personally don't care what each feat represents: learned, acquired, it's all the same to me. They're a game resource, not a sacred cow. Overthinking them seems pointless.

If you end up with 50 things called I-Learned-Ems and 50 things called I-Acquired-Ems, there would be ~0 difference if those 100 things were all called Feats.

Assuming that we don't eliminate iterative attacks (one of the first things to go in a simplified D20 game in my expirence), then an archer should be able to fire iterative arrows without recourse to feats.  Manyshot is then superfluous on the face of it (unless we start adding 'many-swings' feats...).

Naturally the interaction between movement and iterative attacks should be discussed, but perhaps outside of feats.  I will say this: At levels 1-5 fighters tend to be highly mobile, moving as needed around the battle field and generally enjoying the 30' of movement everyone gets. Once they start having to sacrifice attacks, however, fighter types get much more stodgy, preferring to get stuck in and stay there. If the GM keeps big bad evil guys highly mobile, the fighters become secondary to rogues as damage dealers (rogues have much less call to use their iterative attacks, their primary damage comes from sneak attacks, and they have fewer attacks to lose, making mobility based feats far more attractive/common among rogues than fighters... despite fighters having more feats to play with.  High BaB melee-ists are the only 'class' penalized at higher levels for moving....).

My gut instinct is that shooting from horseback should be doable by anyone (hordes of mongolians can't be wrong...), but penalized.  Useful feats would normally reduce the penalty or provide some minor buff.  Improved riding, for example, could allow the character to ride without hands without a penalty for steering, or just at all. Anyone could ride without hands, but might face a stiff (-10?) penalty for any ride checks.

Adding in archery skills may seem like a good idea, but this adds a layer of complexity, something to track for too little added benefit. I think back to Jrients Wraethlu review for this one (in particular the combat skills portion...).

Quote from: James McMurrayCool. I personally don't care what each feat represents: learned, acquired, it's all the same to me. They're a game resource, not a sacred cow. Overthinking them seems pointless.

If you end up with 50 things called I-Learned-Ems and 50 things called I-Acquired-Ems, there would be ~0 difference if those 100 things were all called Feats.

Trust me: I'm not looking at them as sacred cows. Look at my Sig, man!

To be clear, while I am concerned with muddy waters (isn't that a band?), I'm also looking at a tendency to ignore things that tie the characters to the setting unless it has munchkin/min-max potential.  If 'Snakeblooded' is utterly ignored by 99% of gamers because it's sub-optimal then it needs to be rethought. People shouldn't be thinking of snakeblooded in comparison to, say improved initiative, first of all. I'd rather it be weighed against likes, such as Merchant background or what have you.

As I said earlier the NWN2 character I made was illustrative of where my own thoughts were going: you took a background as part of character creation. It fell along the feats, but not taking one didn't add an extra 'combat' feat.

I hate feat chains. Hate 'em with the fire of a thousand burning suns. They hurt my brains. If I'm making my 12th-level Fighter, then I gotta do more than just pick feats. I need to know which feats are prerequisites for other feats, and I'm forced to backwards-engineer EVERY multi-levelled character from 1st-level to its current higher level.

I don't need the complication.

Now, one thing I could live with, is if the possession of two or more feats allowed you to perform a "stunt" that you normally would find difficult or impossible.

Let's say (and I'm just making this up), you have a "Rider on the Storm" feat that gives a DR 3 against electricity. There's a "Frenzy" feat, identical to the Barbarian ability, and you possess it. You also possess another feat called "Trollborn Legacy", allowing you to recover 1d6 Hit Points within an hour if you're resting completely, and succeed at a Fortitude save of 10.

Now what if you received an ability separate from, but triggered by those three feats? Say....what if you spontaneously regenerated 1d6 Hit Points per round every time you were damaged by an electrical attack? And it triggers the "Frenzy" feat, which is functionally equivalent to the Barbarian class ability "Rage"? You keep regenerating during the "Frenzy" (1d6 hps/round), but need to make a Will save vs a DC of 10 to avoid losing control, and attacking everyone around you.

The three feats themselves need no prerequisites, but there's a chance you'll go all "Frankenstein" if someone zaps you with lightning.  Stuff like that would be interesting, but wouldn't necessarily FORCE me to know which feats have prequisites, and which don't. Stuff like this can make the game EASY TO LEARN, BUT HARD TO MASTER. :haw:

And that can satisfy more people more often.

What I proposed here might not be the most game-balanced thing in the world, but I think you get my point. :cool:

Sounds like a cooler version of synergy, a la the skill system.  I would love to see something like that, but given how much money I make off of roleplaying (here is a hint, it begins with a negative sign....) I won't touch making one myself.

As an aside, and to spin off something you said: I have long been of the mind that many 'class abilities' should be available in some form as feats. The Barbarian's Rage, for example, sounds like something featable. Barbarians do it better (what with all the extra uses a day), but why couldn't a straight fighter pick it up? I mean, two weapons used to be the sole purview of the Ranger from what I've heard!

Of course, then you have to decide where to draw the line, if at all. Turning? Why not! Clerical Domains? Sure.  Sneak attacks?

From there Feats utterly eliminate the Class structure.  Not that I'd complain, but I'm sure a few people would weep bitter, ashen, tears...

Feat permutations are a lot more complex than feat trees. At least with a tree you can put each tree on a sheet of paper. When permutations you'd need a constantly updated 3-d poster map to track which feats give extra bonuses when bought with others.

Alrighty then: I have pulled out the SRD feat list and given it a once over. Aside from consolidating  some stuff I was disappointed with my 'once over' as far as shortening. Of course, this is just PHB feats.  Before I post (in quotes) the rough draft, some notes:

None of the skill feats are listed, and most, but not all the item creation feats have also been removed. I was going to remove the greater and improved feat versions, collapsing them, but chose to leave them in place with the appropriate note.

The PHB feats are generally not bad in and of themselves, I think. A few misteps in implimentation.

Changing feats rapidly begins to resemble overhauling the rules as written, which is why I don't try to use the Unearthed Arcana stuff anymore.  I left a few scattered comment notes, areas I am more open to discussion on (not that any decision is off limits, mind you...).  A later draft won't have all the removed feats listed at all, and I initially wanted to do a straight list, including the feats from Eberron and FR main books and a few of the more popular feats from some of the expansions. Feat bloat is not solvable at this end, merely controllable.

Some of the changes are more or less off the cuff.  There is a little power ramping involved: Removing higher level versions of initial feats either leaves characters weaker, or you give them the same benefit for free, making them 'more powerful'. I chose the later.  

I need a rulebook in front of me to really do this justice. I admit that I have made little effort to memorize the entire rule set, that's why I own books.

QuoteSpike's Feats:

Skilled: This feat replaces Acrobatic and similar feats. The player may take +3 to one skill or +2 to two related skills. May be taken multiple times, each time for a new skill/skill set.  

Armor Proficiency: Removed. Anyone may wear armor, however, certain feats/class abilities may be hindered by armor.

Armor Mastery: The character is extremely comfortable wearing a certain type of armor. Their Max Dex and armor check penalties are improved by 1, spell failure is reduced by 5%. Speed penalties are reduced by 5, if any.  May be taken multiple times for different types of armor. (note: type, not class. Chain mail, not 'medium armor')

Augment Summoning: Unchanged.

Blind Fight: Unchanged.

Brew Potion: removed. Now part of Alchemy Skill. May require arcane and/or divine spell casting (not necessarily the brewer, can be an untrained assistant with spells) of at least 3rd level. Potions still require xp expenditure.  

Cleave & Great Cleave: now a single Feat. If character BaB is +6 or higher, character may cleave repeatedly.

Combat Casting: Unchanged.

Combat expertise:  Half the character's BaB is applied to defence when used, instead of sliding scale.

Craft Feats: Removed/subsumed under appropriate craft skills. See also Brew Potion.

Deflect Arrows: no longer requires Improved Unarmed strike. May be used with a melee weapon/sheild. At Dex 15/BaB +6 character may, if hand free, snatch arrows instead.

Diehard: Remove prerequisite

Dodge: Dodge Bonus increases to +2 at 10th level. Character may split dodge bonus between two attackers at this point.

Empower Spell: Unchanged

Endurance: Unchanged.

Enlarge Spell: Unchanged

Eschew Materials: Unchanged.

Exotic Weapon Proficency: Removed. Note: some 'exotic weapons' added after the PHB will require additional treatment to prevent unbalancing. (elven rapiers, broad bladed weapons etc... these weapons make non-exotic versions sub optimal).

Extend Spell: Unchanged.

Extra Turning: Removed.  Suggestion: Turning times per day unlimited. Possible overhaul of turning implied.

Far Shot: remove Prerequisite.

Forge Ring: See Craft Item Feats.Removed.

Enhanced Save: Character gets a +2 bonus to save of choice. removes individual feats.

Greater Spell Focus: Removed

Greater Spell Penetration: Removed

Greater Two Weapon Fighting: Removed

Greater Weapon Focus: Removed.

Greater Weapon Specialization: removed

Heighten Spell: Unchanged

Improved Bull Rush: Remove PA prerequisite. Changed to: When performing a Bull Rush, character gains a +4  bonus. (pending rule reading, may add AoO does not interrupt)

Improved Counterspell: Unchanged.

Improved Critical: unchanged

Improved Disarm: Remove Combat Expertise prereq. Remove:Does not provoke AoO from text.  

Improved Familiar: Unchanged

Improved Feint: Remove Combat Expertise Prereq. Pending rules reading.

Improved Grapple: remove prereqs. Remove text about AoO.

Improved Initiative: Unchanged

Improved Overrun: remove PA prereq.

Improved Precise Shot: Removed.

Improved Sheild Bash: Removed: Shield Bashing no longer removes sheild bonus from AC. Instead: bashing provokes AoO.

Improved Sunder: Remove PA prereq.  Remove AoO text.  Change AoO so sunder does not Provoke (if successful?)... notional.

Improved Trip: Remove CE prereq.  Remove AoO text. Trip should not provoke (notional).

Improved Turning: Unchanged

Improved Two Weapon fighting: Removed

Improved Unarmed: Unarmed combat no longer provokes AoO. Improved Unarmed allows lethal damage without 'fist' weapon.

Leadership:Removed/changed. Leadership rules open to everyone. Note:Leadership feat may continue to exist, but as a specific improvement to normal leadership.  Leadership rules available to all 6th level characters, dependent upon level, charisma and social skills, along with RP events.

Manyshot: removed. Archers can use iterative attacks based on BaB. Note: May signal a change to 'full attack option' for all combatants.

Martial Weapon Profiency: Removed. Classes may provide certain restrictions, but this is not viewed as necessary at this time. Gandalf used a Longsword.

Maximize Spell: Unchanged

Mobility: Remove Dodge Prereq.

Mounted Archery: Remove Mounted Combat Prereq.

Mounted Combat: Removed. Ride skill is limit to 'bonus to hit' in combat from a mount.

Natural Spell: Removed.  Druids can cast certain spells in wild shape (notional)

Point Blank Shot: Unchanged.

Power Attack: Now fixed at 1/2 Bab. Note: using Power Attack does not change iterative attacks, just bonus to rolls.

Precise Shot: Remove PBS prereq.

Quick Draw: Removed.  Due to abstract combat drawing a prepared weapon is no longer a move action. (particularly for throwing weapons, who can now use their full iterative attacks without this feat). A dropped/disarmed weapon can not be quickdrawn anyway, and retriving it still is a move action/AoO provoker at normal.  For quick-draw specialists, get Improved initiative instead. (notional)

Quicken Spell: Unchanged

Rapid reload: Unchanged

Rapid Shot: Removed. See Also Manyshot.

Ride By Attack: Remove. Anyone can Ride By.

Run:  Removed (notional).

Scribe Scroll: Removed; See also Brew potion and Craft Item

Shield Proficiency: Changed to Sheild Mastery: Anyone can benefit from a shield. This character is a master of a specific type of shield and gets an additional +1 AC and reduces penalty by 1.  Note: Sheilds may interfere with certain feats/class abilities.

Shot on the Run: Remove Feat Prereqs

Silent Magic: Unchanged

Simple Weapon Proficiency: remove: Everyone has this automatically. (just a general clean up, as everyone really DOES have it...)

Snatch Arrows: Removed See Also Deflect Arrows.

Spell Focus: At caster level 10 increase bonus to +2

Spell Mastery: Removed. Casters may (notional) chose Int bonus in spells they 'permanently' memorize.

Spell Penetration: At Caster level 10 increase bonus to +4

Spirited Charge: Change prereqs: Ride skill must equal or exceed BaB to use.

Spring Attack: Remove Feat Prereqs. (note: Tempted to remove in favor of making multi-moves standard options. However: I've recommended too many changes as it stands)

Still Spell: Unchanged

Stunning Fist: Remove IUS prereq.

Toughness: Changed: +1 HP per level. Unstackable. (is the bonus too low?)

Tower Shield Proficiency: Removed

Track: Remove. Standard option with ranks in Survival

Trample: May be done without feat. Feat provides +4 bonus as written.

Two Weapon Defence: Unchanged.

Two Weapon Fighting: Anyone can 'two weapon fight' with full iterative attacks. This feat reduces penalties per PHB

Weapon Finesse: Removed: All Finesse weapons now use Dex for To-hit bonus.

Weapon Focus: At BaB +10, weapon focus bonus doubles.

Weapon Specialization: At BaB +10 weapon Specialization bonus doubles.

Whirlwind attack: Remove feat preqreqs. Increase BaB prereq to +8

Widen Spell: Unchanged.

I really wish you'd do this, at least cross post it, on d20 haven - bastard.

OK, I'll just steal it...

Quote from: James McMurrayFeat permutations are a lot more complex than feat trees. At least with a tree you can put each tree on a sheet of paper. When permutations you'd need a constantly updated 3-d poster map to track which feats give extra bonuses when bought with others.

Herein lies one of the things I don't like about feats. I don't know why.

I like skill synergy and I think SL's idea about the lightning zap sending someone with those feats into a frenzy. So why do I dislike the plethora of possibilities that come from people mixing up feats to get this one effect?

Quote from: James J SkachI really wish you'd do this, at least cross post it, on d20 haven - bastard.

OK, I'll just steal it...

I'm forum'd out. Besides, I'm an old skool hater (not a hater of old skool,  a hater with a long history) who has set aside his hate in the name of gaming.

Do you really need that bile on your shiny new forum?

Steal away. I hope to have a much better, more complete list up later this week.  Of course, any and all rule changes wouldn't be necessarily reflected in a list. As I said: You can't muck about with feats too much without necessarily altering the rules to match.

Quote from: James McMurrayFeat permutations are a lot more complex than feat trees. At least with a tree you can put each tree on a sheet of paper. When permutations you'd need a constantly updated 3-d poster map to track which feats give extra bonuses when bought with others.

You're right...if mastery of game mechanics is more important to us. The "Frankenstein" ability is something I'd make the player have to deliberately invoke as a free action (if he wanted it to happen), thus making sure the "Frankenstein" situation doesn't come up, UNLESS WE WANT IT TO.

Rules Mastery should be rewarded, but the basics should be quick and easy for beginners.

On that note, I believe that feat chains make things needlessly harder for both DMs and beginners.

If a player has the "Spirited Charge" feat (for example), I have to know what other feats he took, and at what levels he took them. If I'm making a mid-to-high level character, I need to build him from 1st-level on. Hell, if I'm making a 1st-level guy, I need to know if the feat has a prerequisite or not (though that's not as much of a problem). This is all a headache. For me.

I have some of the same problems with the skill system. Under the rules....a 1st-level rogue/2nd-level fighter has a drastically different amount of skill points from a 2nd-level fighter/1st-level rogue.

They should be the same, right? Wrong.  They could have the same ability scores, feats, and equipment, but the second character is sub-optimal. Why? Character Number Two levelled in Fighter first, thus, he crippled himself in the skill department.

See this post I made on RPGnet in the thread called "why I will be bowing out of 4th Edition D&D"? It gives some ideas of what I'm going for.

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=364805&page=56

I'll outline it here...

Quote from: Sacrificial LambMaybe there's a way for you guys to compromise.  I have the Star Wars book, and have the D&D 3.5 Player's Handbook as well. The middle ground I'd choose would be this:

1.) Make the number of skill points constant. Give everyone 10-20 skill points per level. Intelligence doesn't give you bonus skill points. Many skills don't use Intelligence as a key ability anyway, and making Intelligence affect the number of skills or skill points you have needlessly complicates both games. For example, if your Intelligence increases in 3e, then two almost identical characters can have a drastically different amount of skill points from each other. So keep those skill points the same, level by level.

2.) Eliminate skill synergy bonuses. They're a needless complication.

3.) Eliminate or reduce the necessity to backwards-engineer a character from 1st-level to 30th-level, and back again. How? Eliminate prerequisites for feats. This makes it unnecessary for me to figure out what I want to be at 30th level. Also, characters would NOT multiply their skill points by four at 1st-level. They'd just get those 10-20 skill points at 1st-level, AND THAT'S IT. This eliminates problems, such as a 2nd-level Wizard/1st-level Rogue being drastically different from a 1st-level Rogue/2nd-level Wizard. It shouldn't matter which class you take first.

4.) Don't use Talents from Star Wars. Let's be honest here...."Talents" are just another fancy name for "Feats". Most class abilities are "Feats" by another name, as well. Talents LOOK like Feats, and SMELL like Feats, and have PREREQUISITES like Feats, so let's just call 'em "Feats". (or change the NAME of feats into talents, because that's what Warhammer Fantasy does, and it sounds better ) Just convert all "Talents" into "Class Feats". So just say that every class has a list of "Class Feats" that they automatically receive as they go up in level. This is separate from the "Non-Class Feats" that EVERYBODY gets.

I hope you're following my rambling so far...

5.) Half of the skill points should automatically be tied to specific skills, while with the other half of the skill points, you should be able to choose what you want. So....let's say I have a 1st-level Rogue named "Slappy".  For the sake of discussion, let's say that character gets 12 skill points per level, okay?  Soooo..."Slappy"  has 12 skill points. Half of these points are FIXED. And these six skills are, for example: Bluff, Climb, Hide, Move Silently, Search, and Sleight of Hand. For the sake of this exercise, we'll assume that ALL rogues have these SIX skills.

BUT....

"Slappy", the 1st-level Rogue still has 6 skill points left. He can spend those other 6 points on WHICHEVER skills he wants. Whee! No more cross-class skills!

Now, you might be wondering if our Rogue has enough points. Only ONE skill rank per skill? Bleah!  Well, you COULD adopt the Star Wars ability to be "trained" in a skill, and apply it to those initial 6 skills. As we all know, being "trained" in SWSE provides a +5 bonus.

So "Slappy" would be "trained" in Bluff, Climb, Hide, Move Silently, Search, and Sleight of Hand. He automatically gains ONE SKILL RANK each level in his "trained" skills. Every level he gains, he can spend the remaining half of his skill points on "non-trained" skills. To make things fair, we'll assume that you can't put more than 1 skill rank in any individual skill per level. This almost guarantees that you'll be more proficient when using your "trained" skills. Hence, you'll have the simplicity of Star Wars, but the fine-tuning of D&D!

And don't forget that it could be possible to gain feats that allow you to become "trained" in one of your "untrained" skills.

Am I on to something, or what?

I want to encourage players to develop their characters organically, more spontaneously deciding how they want their characters to develop. Removing feat prerequisites can help make this happen. Forgive me for focusing on BOTH skills and feats in this thread, but I believe both aspects of the game are related, and that a small modification of the two could speed things up BIG-TIME. :cool:

I hope I didn't babble too much, guys....:deflated:

By the way, Spike...I can see that you're attempting to remove many of the feat prerequisites yourself. I heartily approve.

Feats are good. But feat chains make me cry.

Good thread.
There certainly is much fault logic in D20 feats.

However, my personal main problem with them is the fact that they, as a whole, don't make powerful imression they should- namely to enrich the game with flavour and various abilites. Most of them should be default powers.
For a Fighter: Weapon Focus, Weapons Sp., Impr. Critical Hit, Power Attack...

Let me make demonstrate it more clearly through an analogy: Soul Reaver, the video game is an action adventure more or less the style of Zelda.
While in Zelda, a new power or gadget can be used in multiple, colourful ways and to kill enemies, the Soul Reaver Powers were nothing more then "keys". Technically, that was the same Zelda, but it hadn't such a cheesy feeling. You needed the grappling hook to continue but it was also fun to use it as a main weapon. Or to just play around. Or chase secrets. Or combine it with other special items etc...

Back to D&D: How fun is leveling, when my "special" feat choice is pretty much carved in stone anyways? I have to get a lot of key feats if I don't want to stink as a tank. Yawn.

Couple that with the fact that a character who tries to be versatile and picks an assortment of very unusual feats is just WAY weaker then his fellow conservative party member.