I have a question for the developers out there.
Which is your favorite armor system or defence system & why?
What makes it so good versus X game or  Y game?
Does it make sense? Is it easy to incorporate/Understand?
Does it have lots of fidly bits (Example hackmaster armor degridation) or none?

Im trying to get a feel for what is out there, and what works.
More importantly what needs to change? What would you like seen done? It is something thats not quite out there, or do you have an idea of what it could be if X or Y was figured out first?
Thanks in advance.

This sort of question will generate an unlimited number of responses.  Everyone has their own opinion of how armour works, absorb damage, deflect damage, both, neither, hinder movement, doesn't, armour A works better vs weapon B and not as good against weapon C etc....

None of that matters.  You can't make a game that is everything to everybody.  You need to decide how you think armour should work, how it should work in your game and what you can get behind and support.   If you think that armour should absorb damage, then go with it.  If you think armour should absorb damage as well as offer a potential deflection bonus, then work that in.

Ultimately Armour is designed to protect the squishy bits inside.  You need to figure out what makes the most sense in your system.   If weapons just do straight damage then, armour will make you harder to hit the squishy bits and/or take less damage.   If you want more depth, weapons can do various types of damage have penetration damage and different types of damage (slash, pierce, bludgeoning etc..) different armours are designed to match the technology of the time and all are based around working better against certain types.

Depends on the goals of the game and the interconnection to other bits of the game.
Damage gauge as damage track à Shadowrun/WoD, straight&simple hitpoints (D&D, BRP), or something more unusual or mixed as TRoS damage tracks or CP2020 hitpoints? Injury penalties or none? Active or passive defence? Armor as defence boost or damage reduction? Damage rolls, direct calculation from quality of attack, static damage or something else? That can all work out, depending on your goals.

Generally you should aim to keep the number of needed rolls for a combat sequence down, though, including intiative, attack, defense, soaking and what else have you. The more you can save, the less a time-sink combat becomes, especially if there isn't player influence in the rolls involved but rather a pure stat check.

Quote from: SkyrockDepends on the goals of the game and the interconnection to other bits of the game.
Damage gauge as damage track à Shadowrun/WoD, straight&simple hitpoints (D&D, BRP), or something more unusual or mixed as TRoS damage tracks or CP2020 hitpoints? Injury penalties or none? Active or passive defence? Armor as defence boost or damage reduction? Damage rolls, direct calculation from quality of attack, static damage or something else? That can all work out, depending on your goals.

Generally you should aim to keep the number of needed rolls for a combat sequence down, though, including intiative, attack, defense, soaking and what else have you. The more you can save, the less a time-sink combat becomes, especially if there isn't player influence in the rolls involved but rather a pure stat check.

I'm clash bowley and I endorse this position statement.

-clash

Skyrock has the gist of it. I would further expand and say it is a personal preference as well as a group preference to which elements are represented in the combat system.

So, for instance, taking Iridium since I know it best, you would have the Elements:
1. Lethality - High - one shot to the head can kill you
2. Locations - Damage is routed to specific areas with varying amounts of damage that each area can take
3. Tactical - Mid to High - You can parry, disarm, target blows, use terrain and maneuver to affect combat.
4. Epic or Cinematic - Low - You die easily, your wounds are tracked in detail and affect your abilities (cut on the leg slows you down).
5. Hit Points - Yes - Damage is tracked by a Base Fortitude Points that represent a general heartiness and by area specific Fortitude for th amount of damage that any of the 10 areas can withstand.
6. Complexity - Mid - Despite initial impressions, combat is only mid levels of complexity. I consider Rolemaster and Harn more complex. I would rate it as only slightly more complex than D20 combat.

That is my take on how you might get a handle on the question. I would be interested in seeing Clash's breakdown of Starcluster.

Bill

Quote from: HinterWeltSkyrock has the gist of it. I would further expand and say it is a personal preference as well as a group preference to which elements are represented in the combat system.

[CLIP]

That is my take on how you might get a handle on the question. I would be interested in seeing Clash's breakdown of Starcluster.

Bill

For StarCluster system:

1. Lethality - By default low, but you can optionally vary this by changing the multiplier for Constitution. You can also use optional rules for sniping and commando kills.

2. Locations - None.

3. Tactical - Abstract. Trading points between Init, To Hit, and Damage, and using cover.

4. Epic or Cinematic - Low. You get injured easily, and injuries affect your rolls directly.

5. Hit Points - Not quite. Constitution is your physical stats times a modifier - by default 10, but there are optional rules for other modifiers. There are four levels of injury, with increasing disability. At half your Constitution, you have trouble staying up, and need to force yourself to continue. At 1/4, you can't continue, and go out. Low lethality, but fairly gritty.
 
6. Complexity - Low-Mid. Once you get the conceptual hang of trading points, the rest is nothing. Straight %d rolls under a TN. Everything is rolled on percentile, and is on the same scale.

7. Armor - detracts from hit probability. Since you can trade points between hit probability and damage, it doesn't really matter, and front loading it is easier.

-clash

Hinterwelts break-down is a great idea.
I won't take my own game Mazeprowl as it still has to go into play-test (and estimations about untested systems will often be off by 180°), but I'll take two other games whose combat/damage/armor-mechanics I enjoyed in actual play and about whichs design goals I have a good idea.
(Surprisingly, both come from the "realism" school that I normally don't like, but both do their trade so well that even I can like them and offer some additional boons (TRoS is a very well designed tactical system in addition to all the simulation, while Cyberpunk manages to catch the feeling of "combat as in real for real men" quite well with relatively little complexity.)

Cyberpunk 2.0.2.0
Note: I quickly adopted the houserule to halve all armor values. Without it lethality will go down quite a bit.
1. Lethality: Mid to High. If you get shot into the head and wear no helmet, even a single 9mm round has a good chance to put down Arnold Schwarzenegger back in his Mister Universum days.
Hits into the torso or other extremities are less lethal, but still dangerous.
Good Armor heavily cuts down the lethality, though (especially without the half-SP-house-rule).
2. Locations: Yes: Head, Torso and both Legs and Arms. They are mostly randomized, but there's a called shot option with a penalty.
3. Tactical: Low to Mid. Use of cover and constant movement are vital to survival, and battlemap + minis are very advisable.
Ambushes are highly favoured, so that combat is often won by setting it into the right circumstances or by fleeing and setting up an ambush.
There's also an tactical intiative - gain +3 on the initiative roll
Several weapons allow tactical choice, as autoweapons whichs RoF and bullet spread you have to decide, or weapons with special effects as acid pellets or special grenades.
4. Epic or Cinematic: Low. The assumption of the whole system is "realistic" play, so that unnecessary stunts are heavily penalized
5. Hit Points: Yes. The hitpoint track is used to determine the difficulty of the Stun Saves and Death Saves you have to pass. As Death Saves start only later and are less penalized, most battles will end with the participants unable to act on the ground, slowly bleeding out, what leads to rather gritty combats but also allows to get back a fallen character with a good first aid check.
6. Complexity: Mid to High. With standard weaponry it's clearly in the middle (modificator lists, a few special rules as full-auto fire etc.), but some toys from the later supplements carry a load of special rules and slow down combat.
7. Armor: Subtracted from damage. Damage is classically rolled in an own roll, with a small Body Bonus in melee.

The Riddle of Steel (quick-start version)
Note: TRoS only really works with duels. Mass combats which can't be broken down into several duels are a pain to run.
Also note that it's only the quick-start version - the full version is way more complex and confusingly written.
1. Lethality: Mid. The first hit to wound is most often the one that decides the combat, but armor and good brawn massively cut down the chance to be hit at all.
2. Locations: Yes, 7 zones. Are chosen, not randomized.
3. Tactical: Very high. You have to divide your combat pool between the two exchanges each round, and there's a load of maneuvers. There's also an unique way of initiative were both secretly decide if they opt to attack or to defend, with a double attack as a quick death to both.
4. Epic or Cinematic: Low to Mid. The system aims to stay down to earth, but high Spiritual Attributes allow to get away with some insane tries.
5. Hit Points No. Every location has a wound between level 0 (unhurt) and level 5 (most gory mutilation thinkable) which result in Shock (temporary wound penalties), Pain (long-time wound penalties) and Blood Loss (Target Number to avoid Brawn drain every round, with Brawn 0 = dead). Some wounds have special effects (heavy hits to the legs can knock you prone, while several level 5 wounds result in instant death (e.g. against the chest or the head).
6. Complexity High. A cheatsheet with the maneuvers for every player is an highly advisable game aid to keep combat fluid. Even with it there's a lot of book-keeping involved.
7. Armor: Armor + Brawn are subtracted from damage. Damage is determined as Brawn + Weapon Mod + Netto Successes from Attack + Modificators from Maneuvers.

EDIT: Edited a few wordings, added "#7: Armor" as Clash did.

Quote from: HinterWeltSkyrock has the gist of it. I would further expand and say it is a personal preference as well as a group preference to which elements are represented in the combat system.

So, for instance, taking Iridium since I know it best, you would have the Elements:
1. Lethality - High - one shot to the head can kill you
2. Locations - Damage is routed to specific areas with varying amounts of damage that each area can take
3. Tactical - Mid to High - You can parry, disarm, target blows, use terrain and maneuver to affect combat.
4. Epic or Cinematic - Low - You die easily, your wounds are tracked in detail and affect your abilities (cut on the leg slows you down).
5. Hit Points - Yes - Damage is tracked by a Base Fortitude Points that represent a general heartiness and by area specific Fortitude for th amount of damage that any of the 10 areas can withstand.
6. Complexity - Mid - Despite initial impressions, combat is only mid levels of complexity. I consider Rolemaster and Harn more complex. I would rate it as only slightly more complex than D20 combat.

That is my take on how you might get a handle on the question. I would be interested in seeing Clash's breakdown of Starcluster.

Bill

Okay, good I need this kind of break down. This is for pandora:

1. Lethality - Mid, but Conditionaly High - In the right hands some one could kill another person, typically there is a save mechanic at work
2. Locations - Yes, based on your to hit roll and a chart, conditional effects may effect locations. This step is optional
3. Tactical - Mid  - You can  use terrain and maneuver to affect combat.
4. Epic or Cinematic - Mid - Death save mechanic
5. Hit Points - Yes but not location specific
6. Complexity - Low-Mid (this is our target)

~ For armor what we are looking for ~
Right now, our damage ratio is pretty high. Currently you can get bonus damage for hitting better than the target number to hit, plus your agression modifier or defense (Depending on the weapon) and class and talents can expand this.  Becuase of this I feel that a DR and Defense armor system is the best, but with a twist. Id like lighter armors to provide more defense but less DR and heavy cumbersome plate to be High DR low Defense.

Id like kryyst to expand his notion of certain weapons (slashing etc) and what they (in his opinon) would work against in a medevil setting  (Does plate protect better against bashing or pericing?)

As for complexity, I have no rolled inititive, its a simple roll to attack, vrs a target number and I have a damage mechanic, now im looking for either a soak or defense mechanic, which is why i was doing a general poll to see what people were likeing and why.

Anyways, your thoughts on this?

As few as I know, I see nothing wrong with what you are doing if you aim for a more "realistic" system with a bit of tactics thrown in.
A trade-off between two things that serve the same goal (don't suffer damage) is always a good thing for the tactician to contemplate about, but you should doublecheck and calculate everything to make sure that one street isn't outright superior to the other.

Maybe there's something in concrete execution that could be improved, but conceptually I don't see anything outright wrong.

Quote from: sithsonAs for complexity, I have no rolled inititive

How is initiative then resolved? Is it a fixed number à BRP/Cthulhu, or is it a trade-off choice as in a StarCluster/CP2020 without ini roll, or do you have a fancy trick that makes all participants act at once à TRoS, or are action and ini the same as in Sorcerer, or how do you determine initiative then?

Right now, we have it as a fixed number = to your awareness score + Your agression score + Class or talents. Ties go to the person with the higher base awareness score. This results in numbers between 30 and 10 on average. We realize that this is pretty sloppy atm, and having not read the sources you have I cant comment or improve on this idea atm. I would like to hear about how they mechanicaly work however.

Our goal is to have a higher number to be better & faster and eliminate some of the zany 5% chance of going last for the entire combat, with your epic level rogue or really dexterious character. I feel that while some times punishment for rolling bad on init should be implemented, I feel that with an extended combat that lasts several rounds at that same Init is unwarneted. Simularly Refocusing seems a way to cheat out of this. So in the case with suprise attacks, or caught off guard I belive it would be easier to subtract off a base number for lets say X amount of rounds (Maybe one maybe a die rolls)
then back to your true number?

Also, becuase of the way that heavy weapons work, you'll find your self slowing down over time (unless your really strong) and thus lowering your init I felt that giving the players a higher base number (Since awarness is between 3 and 18, with a average of 11) could help this problem.

But Id love to hear what the other systems do.

So you have basically the BRP solution, but with several sources for the initiative stat rather then DEX alone.

As you asked, I can give a brief summary of the systems I mentioned:

StarCluster/CP2020: You can use Haste to improve your initiative throw by a certain number, but suffer the same number as penalty on your actual combat actions.
It consists of a initiative roll, but could easily be integrated into a diceless initiative system. You could even add a certain "rock, paper, scissors" minigame where everyone secretly decides how much he wants to Haste, and everyone reveals their choice at once.

TRoS: It focuses on duels, so both participants act at once.
What they do though at the beginning of every combat is to hold a red and a white token in their hand, and at the command of the GM they throw one of them at once. Red is Offense, White is Defense.
Red + White = usual combat sequence with an attacker and a defender
White + White = no combat this round, both circle around each other, look for weaknesses and try to provoke the other into attack with opposed Presence rolls
Red + Red = Both attack at once, without any means to defend. Usually a double kill. You can sacrifice some of you combat pool to try to go first though, but this is risky as hell if you can't put down your enemy in one swing with your reduced Combat Pool.

From there on the winner of a exchange keeps the offense, while the loser of the last exchange is in the defense.
There are however maneuvers that throw the combat back to the beginning with the token throwing (i.e. Full Evasion).

Sorcerer: It's a pool system where the highest die wins. All declare their actions, pick the appropriate stat and use the same roll as initiative _and_ action.
You can also abort your action and go into full defense, re-rolling you roll. If you don't choose to abort for defense, you counter with just one meager die.

So let's say that A, B and C are in combat. A wants to hit B, B wants to hit C, and C wants to hit A. A rolls 9,8,8, B rolls 7,3,3 and C rolls 5,5,5. Therefore A acts first with his 9, B acts second with his 7 and C acts as last one with his meager 5.
A sticks to his action and keeps his 9,8,8 as attack roll. B would suffer an attack with three netto successes if he would stick to his attack, so he opts to go into full defense and leave C unharmed. C goes at last and has to stick to his roll while A rolls his full stat to defend as he has already acted.

(Be careful though if you publicly admire this mechanic, we don't like story-games in this part of town )

Wow, neat. Thanks for typing that down for me. I Like to see what the others game systems are doing so that I can understand where they are comming from. I like that starcluster thing with the suprise. Hmm..

Quote from: sithsonI have a question for the developers out there.
Which is your favorite armor system or defence system & why?
What makes it so good versus X game or  Y game?
Does it make sense? Is it easy to incorporate/Understand?
Does it have lots of fidly bits (Example hackmaster armor degridation) or none?

Im trying to get a feel for what is out there, and what works.
More importantly what needs to change? What would you like seen done? It is something thats not quite out there, or do you have an idea of what it could be if X or Y was figured out first?
Thanks in advance.

My favorite is as follows:

Armor reduces weapon damage by its armor value (AV).

Weapons are rated with a penetration value, which is the amount of AV they can ignore.

Defense, getting missed, is based on your skill in melee.
There is generally no skill based defense to missile weapons.

Shields add to both AV and Defense.

Few fiddly bits, special abilities to add to defense ("dodge") missiles, combat tactics which can trade Attack for Defense or vice versa.

Armor taking damage itself is an idea I conceptually like but found it can slow things down bookeeping wise more than I like.  A better approach is after so much combat armor or a big hit armormight need to make a "save" or get degraded.  Still you'll need to remember this conditional.


Examples:
A large bowie knife may be rated for 1D6 damage with a penetration of 1, and a poinard for 1D4 damage but a penetration of 4.  Against an unarmored foe the bowie is the more lethal weapon.  Against a man in chainmail (AV=4) the bowie knife will do 1D6-3 while the poinard (being long, thin and designed to penetrate armor) would do 1D4.

The difficulty in such approaches is matching the numbers of AV, weapon damage, penetration, even hit points, etc. to give the play you want.

Hmmmmm.

Something just came to me, bear with me. Okay I think that armor adding to your defense score is a given, I think every one likes that Idea. It feels like you have armor on, but doesnt act like it. I think thats where it comes down to it.

So, This idea just popped into my head. What if, instead of armor reduction and what not, we Add Hit points (as like a buff), and attach a rating to the armor type? I think the stnadard light / medium / heavy armor aproach should do fine for this.

So lets take the trusty Leather armor, Adds 2 to your defense and it's light. Lets make it that all light armor add x2 to the defense bonus it gives, so in this case, the leather armor gives you 4 extra hitpoints! (rogues at first level rejoice) With that, it feels like you have armor, and sort of acts like it too, adds a bit of a cusion to fall back on to.

Lets further stipulate for the sense of realisim that every time you drop below 0 HP, your armor degrades by 1. Becuase it degrades, it looses its effectivness againsts blows. At 0 you need a new suit, or repair.

Now to further bring along the mechanic, lets give medium and heavy armor x3 rating to its hit point bonus (Lets say chainmail gives you a Defense bonus of 4 you'd get 12 extra hp!) Alternativly to tone this effect down we could say light armor gives only its bonus in HP, where as medium / heavy armor x2 bonus.

To futher tweak this, we could also say that certain weapon ignore the hp bonus that certain armor provides.

The thing that gets me is I like that AV set up you have, but im having a hard time replicating it to this example. Both weapons deal their damage, while one ignores the hit point bonus. Perhaps the adds hit point is a bit clunky? Hmmm (sorry im typing as I think here)

I like that the armor is giving extra HP but perhaps to many? So time to abstract just a little.

So Okay lets stick with that Armor Gives you HP = to its Defense rating. I like the breakage rule, lets keep that in... Hmm im going to keep at it this is really helping me alot. Thanks.

Quote from: sithsonHmmmmm.

Something just came to me, bear with me. Okay I think that armor adding to your defense score is a given, I think every one likes that Idea. It feels like you have armor on, but doesnt act like it. I think thats where it comes down to it.

So, This idea just popped into my head. What if, instead of armor reduction and what not, we Add Hit points (as like a buff), and attach a rating to the armor type? I think the stnadard light / medium / heavy armor aproach should do fine for this.

So lets take the trusty Leather armor, Adds 2 to your defense and it's light. Lets make it that all light armor add x2 to the defense bonus it gives, so in this case, the leather armor gives you 4 extra hitpoints! (rogues at first level rejoice) With that, it feels like you have armor, and sort of acts like it too, adds a bit of a cusion to fall back on to.

Lets further stipulate for the sense of realisim that every time you drop below 0 HP, your armor degrades by 1. Becuase it degrades, it looses its effectivness againsts blows. At 0 you need a new suit, or repair.

Now to further bring along the mechanic, lets give medium and heavy armor x3 rating to its hit point bonus (Lets say chainmail gives you a Defense bonus of 4 you'd get 12 extra hp!) Alternativly to tone this effect down we could say light armor gives only its bonus in HP, where as medium / heavy armor x2 bonus.

To futher tweak this, we could also say that certain weapon ignore the hp bonus that certain armor provides.

The thing that gets me is I like that AV set up you have, but im having a hard time replicating it to this example. Both weapons deal their damage, while one ignores the hit point bonus. Perhaps the adds hit point is a bit clunky? Hmmm (sorry im typing as I think here)

I like that the armor is giving extra HP but perhaps to many? So time to abstract just a little.

So Okay lets stick with that Armor Gives you HP = to its Defense rating. I like the breakage rule, lets keep that in... Hmm im going to keep at it this is really helping me alot. Thanks.

That's Palladium's SDC. Gives you HP on top of your HP, but it degrades when hit.

-clash