I posted elsewhere about how cool I thought the karma system was in Tenra Bansho Zero, based on what I'd read about it having never played the game. It seemed to be a cool way of evoking melodrama of the kind where the hero comes to town, ends up getting involved in drama, and then having to abandon his new life there to save the people he cares about from the trouble that seems to follow him.

In TBZ all use of bonus points incurs Karma, a negative force that twists a character if too much is accrued, this can be offset by destroying the traits representing that which the character cares about. I wanted some of this for my game, if only a bit more flexible. Wuxia can include similar melodramatic concepts I think: characters form attachments and are compelled to act based on what happens to them. So the basic idea is:

When a hero performs a deed, an act of significance that marks them out for great destiny, they receive points of Interesting Times.

The GM can spend these to give the hero a Destiny based on his recent actions. For example, if you've spent a lot of time with the princess you were hired to protect, your relationship with her becomes an attachment. That Destiny has a value equal to the points spent to create it.

When a hero invokes or follows that Destiny, he receives Chi. But if that Destiny is destroyed (for example the Princess is killed) somehow; he incurs Vengeance driving his desire to seek retribution.

If the hero desires he can abandon that attachment without destroying it, he may reduce his Interesting Times burden.

I don't have an exact analog for Karma as it is specifically a buddhist concept. Also Interesting Times should be something that has multiple uses: it represents the weight of importance that the character endures: the more 'famous' he becomes the greater that burden, but it can have its own uses, somehow.

Destinies are a prime means of acquiring Chi, aka bennies.

Vengeance is used to represent a character driven by dark thoughts, someone open to corrupting power as well. As he grows darker, though not specifically bad, he becomes an outcast and a pariah but can use his Vengeance to power acts against those that have wronged him.

That's the idea anyway.

Or one can, like role-play a character and have adventures.

That's really interesting, but I find my 'reading mind' wanting to see a chart.  Some kinds of examples along degrees that illustrate the economy.

Please, keep going.  This could be a really useful mechanic.

Quote from: gleichman;629517Or one can, like role-play a character and have adventures.

What makes you think it's an either-or situation?

Quote from: mcbobbo;629518That's really interesting, but I find my 'reading mind' wanting to see a chart.  Some kinds of examples along degrees that illustrate the economy.

Please, keep going.  This could be a really useful mechanic.

It is difficult to provide a chart, I'm not sure what the costs etc would be.

The idea in TBZ is: using your inner power creates karma. Karma ultimnately corrupts you. Get rid of your attachments to get rid of Karma.

I don't want to copy this exactly, not least of all because using Chi (which would be the same thing, in TBZ it's called Kiai or something) isn't intrinsically bad. The idea is that youare, essentially, drawing attention to yourself. You are creating a reputation or a legend. You're the town badass and now people want a piece of you.

My idea involves the GM conferring these Destinies, not the player. This won't be popular with a lot of people, and it might not work, but the GM can say buy the player a Destiny such as: the player has been protecting a nobleman's daughter and the GM buys that player a Destiny based on the hero becoming protective and fond of her. She becomes something significant in his life not out of the player's choice, which is conceptually important. The player can then draw on this to get more Chi.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;629540What makes you think it's an either-or situation?

Your suggestion of mechanics.

Quote from: gleichman;629551Your suggestion of mechanics.

how so?

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;629554how so?

The purpose of mechanics is to constrain choice. I consider that an excellent option with respect to combat and skill resolution.

And a exceedingly poor option for role-playing and adventure development.

Quote from: gleichman;629555The purpose of mechanics is to constrain choice. I consider that an excellent option with respect to combat and skill resolution.

And a exceedingly poor option for role-playing and adventure development.

I don't understand how you come to those conclusions.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;629562I don't understand how you come to those conclusions.

Easily.

Rules are constraints. In basketball you must meet certain requirements to score a basket, and yet other requirements to score 3 points with one. The excitement is seeing someone manage it despite those constraints. This is the heart and primary purpose of game rules.

This approach is great for RPG combat, skill resolution and perhaps a few other areas.

However I don't see the point in constraints on role-playing or adventure design.

Quote from: gleichman;629565Easily.

Rules are constraints. In basketball you must meet certain requirements to score a basket, and yet other requirements to score 3 points with one. The excitement is seeing someone manage it despite those constraints. This is the heart and primary purpose of game rules.

This approach is great for RPG combat, skill resolution and perhaps a few other areas.

However I don't see the point in constraints on role-playing or adventure design.

'Easily' is not an answer.

I'm well aware of what rules are.

You are not telling me why you think this would work for rpg combat or skill resolution. The idea has nothing to do with them whatsoever. Nor do I understand how you think this constrains anyone's roleplaying. In order to gain the points one would have to roleplay.

It looks like a freeform achievement system, with Chi or Vengeance as the rewards (I'd just drop the Interesting Times mechanic, and maybe let the GM just bump up any one Destiny that the player worked towards in that session by 1, creating one of necessary. IT's sound like a pool of points simply for the sake of having a pool of points).

The Chi / Vengeance automatic split sounds iffy to me, though, because it hard-wires in a character's reactions. I'd let players pick which direction to cash their Destinies into, depending on what's appropriate for the character.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;629578'Easily' is not an answer.

I'm well aware of what rules are.

You are not telling me why you think this would work for rpg combat or skill resolution.

It wouldn't. I was just stating those areas rules are well suit for.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;629578Nor do I understand how you think this constrains anyone's roleplaying. In order to gain the points one would have to roleplay.

You have to role-play according to and directed by the rules, towards those ends.

Sorry, not interested. I want to role-play towards mine ends.

Quote from: Ladybird;629583It looks like a freeform achievement system, with Chi or Vengeance as the rewards (I'd just drop the Interesting Times mechanic, and maybe let the GM just bump up any one Destiny that the player worked towards in that session by 1, creating one of necessary. IT's sound like a pool of points simply for the sake of having a pool of points).

The Chi / Vengeance automatic split sounds iffy to me, though, because it hard-wires in a character's reactions. I'd let players pick which direction to cash their Destinies into, depending on what's appropriate for the character.

I agree that it's a lot of points and that it needs streamlining, but the idea for IT was that it would have other uses as well.

Vengeance has to be a hardwired reaction in the sense that it's what happens when you are wronged, betrayed or those things you care about are destroyed. It also opens the character up to dark power. I'm not sure how it would work if it was all by choice. That would lessen the impact. I'm all for character choice, but in this case I'm not so sure.

Quote from: gleichman;629592It wouldn't. I was just stating those areas rules are well suit for.



You have to role-play according to and directed by the rules, towards those ends.

Sorry, not interested. I want to role-play towards mine ends.

so a game lik l5r wouldnt appeal to you either, with its rules for simulating samurai codes.

that's fair enough, but the cryptic responses i can do without.