Rincewind. About the stairs. If you are talking about a symbol to locate stairs in a dungeon level, check out the very first link in my last brainstorm post here, the one that links to Level 2 of St. Makhab. There's a map there that shows some stairs.

We haven't reached the design of individual levels here yet, but that will come.

If you mean for the side view, just stick with the symbols shown on page 3 of this thread.

Quote from: Benoist;507416Rincewind. About the stairs. If you are talking about a symbol to locate stairs in a dungeon level, check out the very first link in my last brainstorm post here, the one that links to Level 2 of St. Makhab. There's a map there that shows some stairs.

We haven't reached the design of individual levels here yet, but that will come.

If you mean for the side view, just stick with the symbols shown on page 3 of this thread.

Oh, I meant it mostly in an aspect "I am a cheap bugger and I try to keep my dungeon, if it's small, on one page". I did mean the individual design, yep.

Found the link - yup, just as I thought. I've not really drawn any dungeons for ages, so pardon my foolishness.

Benoist, thank you so much for this wonderful example of your dungeon building process. I'm only now about to run my first AD&D game, and I wanted to recreate the megadungeon experience that I had heard so much about. I was feeling a bit lost on how to even begin, so this thread has been an incredible resource. I look forward to more insight in the future!

I'm really glad this is useful to you guys! Thanks for registering to let me know, Evil Sagan. Means a lot to me. If you have any question popping up you want answered or whatnot, don't hesitate! Cheerio!

Quote from: Benoist;504476Oh. Don't trap them in the first level of the dungeon. Let them leave, replenish their resources, with the danger that the rooms they've cleared will be repopulated by different creatures or factions or whatnot. It's part of the dungeon's resource management too: do I keep on pushing even if I'm low on spells and three of my hirelings are dead, or do I retreat with what I've got even if I have to face more problems on this level when I come back?

I think it's okay to trap them on the first level. A safe way in and out of the complex is a treasure and seeking one out can provide a different kind of exploratory impetus- especially for a fucked up and running out of resources group.






Something else: Gadgets- I like to put crazy machines and apparatus in my dungeon. Players like figuring out how things work-even if it doesn't provide any other reward beyond the actual activity itself. However, telporters and magical mech suits are awesome too.

Furthermore, mechanisms, depending on their purpose can definitely tell you something about the history/former purpose of area and/or the complex where they were found.

Quote from: Aos;507848I think it's okay to trap them on the first level. A safe way in and out of the complex is a treasure and seeking one out can provide a different kind of exploratory impetus- especially for a fucked up and running out of resources group.

It will be okay on occasion, with the right players in mind. I don't think I would use it as a default game play though. I guess the main question is how the players will react to something like this - will they feel like they are being railroaded or pushed into a particular play direction by being trapped on the level, or will they use this as a welcome impetus to do more? That'll vary I think.

My point really was that the opportunity to go back and forth, in and out of the dungeon is part of the resource management of the game.

Quote from: Aos;507848Something else: Gadgets- I like to put crazy machines and apparatus in my dungeon. Players like figuring out how things work-even if it doesn't provide any other reward beyond the actual activity itself. However, telporters and magical mech suits are awesome too.

Furthermore, mechanisms, depending on their purpose can definitely tell you something about the history/former purpose of area and/or the complex where they were found.

That's true IME as well. Excellent tip.

Quote from: Benoist;507851My point really was that the opportunity to go back and forth, in and out of the dungeon is part of the resource management of the game.



.

Sure, but it can be replaced with foraging, which can provide an equally interesting experience. (Anyway, the Halls of the Hidden Prince have no exit on level 1).

This thread should maybe be stickied and maybe provided with a list of links to on site dungeon resources.

Quote from: Aos;507852Sure, but it can be replaced with foraging, which can provide an equally interesting experience. (Anyway, the Halls of the Hidden Prince have no exit on level 1).

I did something similar in that Level 2 of St. Makhab was played as a reverse dungeon to start the campaign. The PC, Pei Lin, woke up after being victim of a trap that wiped out her memory and the player started the game at that point, not knowing how she got there at all and retracing the steps her other, full self had followed up to that point.

Quote from: Aos;507852This thread should maybe be stickied and maybe provided with a list of links to on site dungeon resources.

Not sure this should be stickied, but we could have a Dungeon Design resource thread on the design and development board that would be stickied with all the threads linked in one place and short associated descriptions maybe?

yeah, that will do it.

For me, megadungeons are only different from the other kinds in scale, so my advice on megadungeons is more or less the same as for smaller ones.

First I start with the structure itself, asking and answering these questions:

Is it a castle, a temple, a tomb, catacombs, caves, all of the above, none of the above?

Who built it and why?

How old is it?

How many times has this piece of real estate changed hands? Who are the other owners? When and how did they get it? When and how did they lose it?

Who holds it now? When and how did they get it?

Then I do a rough sketch of the dungeon's exterior and the surrounding countryside. If I can find good photos from Google, I'll use those for the latter.

When that's done I pick monsters, traps and treasure and fit it within the dungeon as best I can. Sometimes things don't quite fit, which is why I usually prefer ruins because I have a built-in rationalization for say, getting rid of a section of castle wall ("The orcs stormed the castle after breaching the east wall, slaughtering everyone inside and taking over not only the stronghold itself, but the courtyard and bloody field outside."). If more than one monster type inhabits the dungeon, you should note how the different types interact.

Here's one I started, but never got around to finishing:

QuoteEXAMPLE: I once created a megadungeon (though I didn't set out to) that was an enormous ruined tower (like a lighthouse) on an island across from a cliff overlooking the sea [I ]. I wanted this thing to be HUGE: 180' by 180', 10 levels above ground and 10 below ground. To rationalize how big it was, I decided it was created by giants back when they ruled the land and sea [II]. I did a very rough diagram of the tower and surrounding area -just squares and ovals on a piece of paper, with a pair of squiggly lines marking the beach and water, plus two more showing where the cliff was located. I also noted where the waterline would be at high and low tides, since the tower could only be reached on foot during low tide, when a causeway was exposed. The levels above ground were listed as 1-10 in ascending order, and A-J in descending order underground.

Deciding on what to include [III] is always the difficult part. Do you really care if the encounters mesh together or make sense? At this point, I make a list of monsters, encounters, traps and treasure that I'd like to include, and how many (or how much) of each I want (when in doubt, I roll dice). I made my list and once I decided on what to include, a lot of the scenario began to write itself as I explained WHY things were placed as they were:

The tower was once the stronghold of a highly advanced (by D&D standards) group of giants centuries ago. For some reason (angered the gods perhaps?) the place received a powerful smiting, with gaping holes ripped through the granite walls and ceilings and floors, as all the inhabitants killed (or were they?). Since then it has become a lair for some of the "survivors" of the destruction, as well as scavengers and opportunists who use the Tower as a lair, or are just passing through. Only the most foolhardy or desperate would dare enter...

Lvl 1 -marine trolls who washed in with the tide and are waiting for the next high tide to go back to sea (this was where common giants lived)
Lvl 2 -a makeshift dock used by 3 pirate ships at high tide: quarters and storage for the pirates (this was once the giants' Great Hall and is now a huge warehouse)
Lvl 3 -the noble apartments of the giant lords: the pirates and half-orcs deal with each other at the stairwell only, since undead giants and other horrors lurk in the rest of this level
Lvl 4 -the lair of a tribe of half-orcs, plus the dragonnels and wyverns they have tamed as mounts. This level has a pair of gaping holes in the wall that allow the creatures to take flight from inside the tower
Lvl 5 -more of the same, plus a rope bridge (200 yards long) connecting the tower to the cliff
Lvl 6 -empty nomansland: just the charred corpses of the dead -the result of a battle between the half-orcs and the necromancer's henchmen
Lvl 7 -a fiendish necromancer and his retinue, who used various means of flying (magic and mounts) to enter this level through a breach in the wall, in search of treasure
Lvl 8 -an enormous cistern full of almost 648,000 cubic feet (>4,800,000 gallons) of rainwater, as well as pipes to dispense it throughout the tower
Lvl 9 -two dormant iron golems who used to operate the beacon, the boilers and waterworks -they will attack any intruders unless...
Lvl 10 -a huge dragon that sleeps here at night, leaving at dawn to go hunting and returning at dusk to sleep off its meal

These are just the main encounters. The marine trolls might be trying to steal pearls from a giant clam. The pirates might have hostages held for ransom. There might be any number of molds, oozes, puddings and slimes as well as the other standard vermin in dungeons. There is almost no limit to what you could include. If it doesn't fit, you always have the option of literally creating holes in the walls (like I did) to allow entry and exit. If you don't feel like shoehorning something into the dungeon, then you can just cross it off your list. Keep in mind: this only describes what's ABOVE ground. Underground, you can always create side passages, secret corridors if you need to make room for more monsters and traps.

Once you've placed everything, explaining why one creature is here and another one there [IV] is fairly easy, even without throwing SoD in the shredder.

Now that we have figured out who the Builders are, the pieces are starting to fall into place. We have a much better understanding of what the dangers of the place and the surrounding area might entail. Now let’s start thinking about the way this is going to shape our setting and levels in the megadungeon.

The Setting


A Viking temple in the Valley

We know we have a river stretching for miles between two ranges of mountains. This river leads into the sea, about a league (a little less than four miles) away from our volcano and the hamlet in the valley not far from it. There is a harbour by the sea, one of the main communities of the area really, and another village about 16 miles away from the shore in the valley (which we are going to tentatively name Hagensburg, named after the Viking chief that led his people into the area).

The closer you are from the shore, the more you will find descendants from the original native population of the area. These will be based on the First Nations of the Central Coast whose culture and livelihoods are based on fishing, with the Salmon being one of the central animals of their traditional tales and dances. They are a proud people, and they know far more about the area than the Vikings really do. They have a natural reluctance to share their wisdom, however, since their stories and customs are their most prized possessions.

In addition to these two particular ethnic groups, we have other tribes living on the islands off the Coast, and some descendants of a proto-Celtic people who settled in the area prior to the Vikings’ arrival. These are few and far between. They may be the descendants of the people who built the troglodyte habitations on the Volcano’s face we talked about earlier.

The Vikings live on farming the land and hunting around the valley. They run into regular trouble with the wild life of the area, much more so than the natives ever do (it is part of their heritage to know the way of the land and become part of it, in a way, whereas the Vikings settle, plant crops where they can get it to grow, use the lumber where they can find it etc. as the civilized folk are used to do in similar circumstances).

The PCs might have been born in the area, or they arrived recently (because of rumors about treasure in the area, dangers for the settlers and promises to earn a living as hunters and tamers of the wild, because they came to the harbour recently, etc.). They will find no shortage of things to do, from finding people who have lost their way in the wild, to attacks of humanoids on the nearby settlements, to obviously rumours concerning the megadungeon itself, its mines, the troglodyte settlements, the ruins one can find nearby, and so on (more about these rumours later).

The Wilderness



The Wilderness is immediately around the valley itself. It’s all around the settlements and trails, just next to the river running throughout the area. Unless they are clearly following the river, various trails present in the valley, or following some clear indications based on the landmarks of the area, they can get lost really quickly (with a chance between 50% and 70% depending on the particulars of the terrain and elevation. See S&W Complete p. 83 for that). In case a random encounter occurs (1 in 6 per turn of exploration, or per game rules you are using), roll on the Cold Wilderness Areas tables (AD&D MM2 p.135) depending on the exact type of terrain the PCs are treading at the moment.

If you want a sample typical encounters, the PCs could meet black bears, grizzly bears, elks, wolves, winter wolves, wild boars, giant eagles, wyverns, hostile humanoids (goblin, hobgoblin, orc, ogres, hill and frost giants), friendly humanoids (including elves, dwarves, gnomes, Viking or native hunting parties, another group of adventurers, woodland’s men, etc.), dragons (white 1-3, green 4, black 5, red 6), and more, not to mention the aarakocras flying around the area of the volcano and of course, the degenerate fungi haunting the flanks of the mountain at night.

To put it bluntly, traveling around the area without knowing what you are doing is not an absolutely excellent idea. Better to be prepared, and get a clear idea of what it is you are looking for before leaving the trails in the valley.

The Dungeon



Assuming you either do not start at the PCs’ arrival in the area or that they make it to the flanks of the mountain/volcano some time during the first session, we need to start thinking about the dungeon’s population, and map at least the different entrance levels to be ready for their exploration of the place.

It means that the levels marked red on this map should be ready by the first session at least, having the pink levels ready as well being a huge plus for us.

Based on the way our megadungeon is coming together, I think it’d be neat to have a possibility to travel underground from the Bandits’ hideout (1c) to the Troglodyte ruins (1b) through a series of tunnels, maybe with a few set pieces along the way.

Note also that the connection between the hideout (1c) and the marketplace (6) has collapsed some time ago (It’d be crazy for the PCs to get there at low levels. If they really want to, they could hire the help to dig through the rubble. We should allow them to, and provide them with ample warning if they decide to keep exploring in that direction: this is very dangerous territory for them at this level. Beware).

Access to the tunnel/connection between the troglodyte ruins (1b) and the Temple of the Hand could be linked to some type of puzzle or riddle, something having to do with the sorcerers who occupied the place previously. This could be figured out by the PCs early on, but would more likely provide an obstacle to them until they can figure it out using clues we would plant on different levels of the dungeon, for instance in the Tomb (2b) if the riddle has something to do with the technology of the Fungi. Some of the sorcerers could have been abducted to the Hive (0a) as well. There are different possibilities. No need to take a decision right away.

The Aviaries (0b) have two connections to the lower levels. The connection to the mines (1a) would be hard to use, probably some sort of ventilation shaft, where the PCs would have to provide all the different components to make their ascension secure if they so wish. The connection to the Tomb (2b) would be easier, maybe still functional, or hidden during all this time. Maybe the stairs linking the Aviaries to the mines have collapsed as well. None of these obstacles would be insurmountable to the well-organized PCs (they shouldn’t be), but this gives us an idea of our map flow and the potential paths of exploration the PCs might take.

The point is, there must be a whole lot of different ways for the PCs to explore the place however they want, but that doesn’t mean that all ways must be equally easy or accessible. Some of them are more dangerous than the others. There are easy ways to get from point A to point B, and hard ways. Choices, choices, choices.

These elements tie into the resource management of the game. Do we keep digging even though the magic user ran out of spells a while back? Are you sure you want to set up camp by that well here? How do we bring back all that gold from this level up to that one? And so on, so forth.

The levels themselves must provide variety and choices to the exploring PCs. If you go from room to room in a linear succession with the exact same critters populating each of the areas with maybe the boss fight at the end, this is boring, for one thing, and this is playing against the assumptions of the game, second.

Part of the interesting idea behind Vancian memorization for instance is that not all spells are useful all the time, so you have to manage what you want to memorize for this or that particular task, whenever that’s relevant. If you fill up rooms with clouds of goblins, and only goblins, you shouldn’t be surprised if the MU player just blasts through them with fireballs and acid arrows. It’s just that it’s the most useful spell for the job, always. So we must vary the types of threats and populations within the levels themselves, so the game itself remains enticing, with the decision-making process being a part of the equation that leads the PCs to victory or failure.

I wrote down a few notes about my different levels already. More like just bits of sentences and lists. Ideas I will flesh out later as I map the levels themselves. For instance, for the Mines (level 1a) I have:

Mines. Some Ash Kadaï. Long mine corridors. Web. Room clusters and safe areas here and there. Rats/flooded area. Elevator destroyed. Some ‘zombies’. Mi-Go possessed. Carts. Rails. Access to Tome of the Builders (2b). Up Aviaries. Shaft to Ashen Court (2a). Repaired makeshift elevator? Yeti lairs by the entrance? Multiple entrances on the mountain. Some Ash Kadaï want to fight and clean up the level. Others want to stay down at the Ashen Court. Chief is indecisive or dead. Hazards and traps. Traps of the Ash-K. Strings with bells. Hollowed bones. Whistles. Arrows and boulders.

For the Troglodyte ruins I have:

Magical, undead level. Skeletons, zombies, scavengers. Predator found refuge near the surface. Random hauntings. The deeper you go, the creepier and darker it becomes. Up to the seal. Ruins. Abandoned rooms. Traps. Offerings from the Ash-K who are afraid of the place and want to appease its Evil. Bones disturbed are reset after a time. Rooms too. Cursed to repeat for eternity. Pantomime.

And for the Bandit hideout:

Bandit hideout. Victims abducted. Bandit ‘King’ and his court. Hounds he throws food at. Trained rodents. Group of Hobgoblin mercenaries. Mud. Giant Snake pit. Shoddy workshop with disassembled carts, teeth taken out of skulls. Toy constructs built by alchemist to entertain. Alchemist prisoner too? Prisoner for too long.

Just as before when I drew the side-view map of our dungeon and named its levels, I have no idea what some of this stuff might mean yet. I’m just trying to visualize the place and seeing what parts or ambiances or particular rooms or situations might be there.

The same way I did with the map before hand, I let these ideas simmer a bit. Then, when I feel like it, I will actually look for models for the mines and get down to business mapping the level.

That does it, Imma gonna build me one of these suckers too. I've been non-creative for too long.

Quote from: Werekoala;511579That does it, Imma gonna build me one of these suckers too. I've been non-creative for too long.

That just made my day!

Just hope I can measure up, you've set the bar pretty high. Thankfully I've been using pics for years in my games, so I have a huge selection of art and photos to choose from.

*cracks knuckles*

Think I'll go through them when I get home and see what speaks ta me.

More examples means more ways for people to get inspired, get to the game table and roll some dice. It's win-win!