Quote from: Benoist;609049Hey Rob! Nice to see you here! Welcome. I'm glad you enjoy the maps! More to come, once I get around to it! Hopefully soon.

Hey maybe you could give me a pointer on how you did that one map in photoshop, Ben.  That is, finished it. It sure would expedite dealing with numerous old maps that I have and bringing them up to speed, so to speak.

I dare say that it would take a while to read all of the content here.  Are you thinking about collecting it into a pdf or such for wider dissemination, like a tutorial?

Best with it all.

Rob

Quote from: Rob Kuntz;609096Hey maybe you could give me a pointer on how you did that one map in photoshop, Ben.  That is, finished it. It sure would expedite dealing with numerous old maps that I have and bringing them up to speed, so to speak.

Sure, not a problem!

First I have my finished master here, where I reported all my information on two sheets of graph paper as pictured here (plus the cavern system added afterwards):



Then, I scan those two.

I open the pictures in photoshop. I then carefully put the two halves of the map into a single picture document (I calculate the appropriate dimensions of the new doc, then copy/paste the two halves at the same scale, adjust the junction of of the two layers, then crop the outside rim). I adjust the light and contrast as necessary, to give me a crisp master like this:



I print this. Then I add the details I want, still by hand. I shade by hand as well. Then I scan the finished, shaded map. Open it in photoshop. Adjust light and contrast, maybe color some specific areas by creating selected layers of specific items I then shade with different colors using the photoshop tools (such as pools of water), and the result is this:



Is that information useful to you, Rob?

Quote from: Rob Kuntz;609096I dare say that it would take a while to read all of the content here.  Are you thinking about collecting it into a pdf or such for wider dissemination, like a tutorial?

Yes. All of this information and process will be gathered in a handy document, PDF and otherwise, so that people can print, look at it, take it apart, play it however they want. I want to get quite a few more posts in before I do this with any satisfaction, however.

Quote from: Rob Kuntz;609096Best with it all.

Rob

Thanks Rob. Let me know if the short version here of the photoshop process was helpful. Cheers my friend.

Thanks, Ben.  It's all great stuff.

Yes.  I was actually wondering about the steps taken in PS.  Like #1, #2, etc.
in fulfilling the process once it's been imported.  I'm not conversant with your techniques in that regard and it would be a great boon having a stepped procedural for someone like myself who has PS but doesn't know how to leverage its power.

Thanks again!

Rob

you think Ben draws great maps?  he fills them pretty well indeed....

Quote from: Rob Kuntz;609277Thanks, Ben.  It's all great stuff.

Yes.  I was actually wondering about the steps taken in PS.  Like #1, #2, etc.
in fulfilling the process once it's been imported.  I'm not conversant with your techniques in that regard and it would be a great boon having a stepped procedural for someone like myself who has PS but doesn't know how to leverage its power.

Thanks again!

Rob

You're welcome, Rob. I could build a comprehensive step 1, 2... etc method to start with a finished hand drawn map and putting it all together with Photoshop but that'd take some time. Would you, or anyone else, for that matter, welcome such specific advice?

Quote from: LordVreeg;609281you think Ben draws great maps?  he fills them pretty well indeed....

Thank you!

Quote from: Benoist;609419You're welcome, Rob. I could build a comprehensive step 1, 2... etc method to start with a finished hand drawn map and putting it all together with Photoshop but that'd take some time. Would you, or anyone else, for that matter, welcome such specific advice?


Thank you!

Well, yes!    I was hoping you could just point to the various steps, but whatever you would think is the best way for getting to the gist of how to doctor up scanned maps, that would be tops!

Thanks again, Ben!

Rob

Quote from: The Butcher;501805So, I'm preparing an old school D&D game, and right now the only thing I'm 100% sure is that it's going to be a dungeon-centric campaign (an approach which should hopefully come across as fairly novel to my group, a crowd of 30-somethings who grew up playing mostly AD&D 2e). Sounds like a good time for a dungeon-building thread! I've been reading up on the OSR blogosphere (Philotomy's Musings, Justin Alexander's "jaquaying" essays, and sundry stuff from Jeff Rients and Zak Smith and sundry other brilliant, creative guys who are into dungeon-crawling).

For me, this means a fairly big dungeon (certainly bigger than any I've ever designed back in the day; the biggest one I've ever designed so far had 3, maybe 4 levels) with plenty of discontinuous and non-linear construction (forks and loops, secret levels and sub-levels, elevations, shafts which bypass one or more levels, secret passages galore, etc.) the better to instigate and reward exploration for its own sake.

It's occurred to me that, since the campaign will be mostly centered around the dungeon, one could use the dungeon to reveal the history of the setting, with levels acting as archeological strata. The top level, the "tip of the iceberg", might be a relatively recent construction like an abandoned keep or monastery; the cellar might lead to a tomb complex dating to the Old Empire, then to ruined dwarven warrens dating back to before the Dwarf-Elf War, and so on, and so forth, until players reach evidence of the setting's SF roots. As PCs go further down the dungeon, scripts become ancient and unintelligible without scholarly assistance, treasure gets rarer and weirder, traps get deadlier and stranger, and of course, monsters grow bigger, badder and older.

The one thing that's been bugging me is, how do I go about it?
How big do I make the dungeon?
How many levels should I have ready at session #1?
How do I keep PCs interested right from session #1?
How do I keep time during dungeon crawling? How do I compute time spent by PCs at exploring each room, level, etc. so I can keep a meaningful tally on resources like torch, lantern oil, rations, etc.?
How do you like your dungeon? Mythic underworld, quasi-realistic underground complex, or something else entirely?
What software, if any, do you recommend for dungeon map creation? I'm doing it by hand, but having simple and handy software at hand might be nice.
Also, since I don't know shit about archeology, how the fuck do things like entire cities get buried over time? And how would it possible to explore them without, you know, shoveling all the dirt away first?

Advice on this, and on anything else you deem appropriate for a DM who's run his share of D&D (though not a lot of dungeon crawls, and none of them particularly extensive) is most welcome. Share your tips and tricks and success stories and hard-earned lessons. It's all good to me.

Besides, if anyone feels (like me) that theory-wank and edition-warring and general pointless trolling having been taking over the Roleplaying Games forum lately, here's a challenge: let's see how massive can we make an actual gaming thread with practical applications.

How the fuck does an entire city get buried?

Oh...
It happens.

Quote from: Xaos;622428Oh...
It happens.

Helike's story is unbelievable! Swallowed by the earth, covered by a tsunami wave, and then silt deposits which buried her again. Wow.

Quote from: The Butcher;501805How big do I make the dungeon?

That depends on what kind of game you're running. If you've got 20 players with 50 characters spanning 12 levels, and you expect to use it for 5 years,  then it probably needs to be bigger than if the campaign scope is smaller.

Fortunately, you can always make it bigger!

As long as there's always at least an expedition session's worth to explore,  I think you can call yourself ahead of the game.

Another factor is style. The pioneering D&D DMs favored a lot of "empty" (of monsters / treasures / traps) rooms: about 2/3 of the total. The T&T people, and I think a lot of West Coast DMs, went for more packed -- hence more compact -- labyrinths. A single dungeon can have regions of both sorts of density of obvious "encounters".

Note that with the former style, there are typically lots curious things to tempt investigation of 'empty' rooms. Players accustomed to more 'plotted' scenarios may feel obligated to devote more to attention than really warranted to oddities that they mistake for "plot hooks" or "critical clues".
 

QuoteHow many levels should I have ready at session #1?

The original book recommended more, but I think three levels is quite ample if you're starting PCs at 1st experience level -- especially if the players are novices at the dungeon game (and likely to find a venture to the 4th level more frustrating than fun).

Even a single level might do, as the first adventure could be quite engaging enough even without the option (or mishap) of going deeper.

Note that in any case these need not encompass what will eventually be the whole of Level N. New ways can be "discovered", or even magically produced, later. For that matter, Arneson & Gygax suggested (and many DMs have employed) the technique of "remodeling" levels to freshen them up.

QuoteHow do I keep PCs interested right from session #1?

You mean, I hope, the players. Ideally, you have not rounded them up at gunpoint; they have expressed an interest in playing the game! Try catering to that.

More generally, provide a wide variety of stuff. The players can choose for themselves whether to spend a lot of time on Brain Teaser X, or move along in quest of a fight. Keep in mind, however, the note above about players habituated to following "plot hooks" (which can be useful as well as problematic).

QuoteHow do I keep time during dungeon crawling?

Most rules sets give some default rates of movement for cautious exploration. In old D&D, these are so slow that one can easily assume that they already account for sundry delays.

In any case, you'll want some sort of 'turn' or 'move' to tick off, convenient for such things as spell durations (the scale of which may vary with the rules set).

QuoteHow do I compute time spent by PCs at exploring each room, level, etc. so I can keep a meaningful tally on resources like torch, lantern oil, rations, etc.?

Precision beyond the 'turn' is probably superfluous in most cases. An incident that takes a small fraction can be treated as 'nil', on the theory that on average this will be balanced out by some other incident being counted as a turn even though it takes a bit less.

QuoteHow do you like your dungeon? Mythic underworld, quasi-realistic underground complex, or something else entirely?

I like it as "one-stop shopping" for adventure. If there's no intrigue afoot in town or wilderness or asea, the dungeon offers excitement whichever way one turns.

Whatever inspires the DM is a candidate for inclusion. In a world of magic, who is to say what is impossible?

BANDIT LEVEL MAP KEY, PART 4



100 – Chasm and webs. This large area has collapsed a long time ago, and now leads to a very large and deep chasm reaching into the depths of the underworld. Thick spider webs can be seen covering the chasm, stretching from stalactite to stalagmite, between the natural pillars of stone of this place. There is also a smell of sulphur in the air, like a bitter, acrid, persistent, very obvious scent of rotten eggs all around. Torches and open flames carried by the characters will flare and burn slightly more brightly as they approach this area.

These webs will not burn naturally, not like you might expect of usual spider webs, in any case: if exposed to a nourished fire (standing for more than a couple of rounds stubbornly trying to set the webs on fire despite the warning sparks such an action would spawn as a result), they will suddenly burst and create a chain reaction that is comparable to an exploring fireball (5-30 damage on a failed saving throw, half on a successful one) that will engulf the whole area in flame and smoke for a brief moment.

These webs are strong, however, and can easily support the weight of men as they travel at half speed through the area over the chasm from one side of the cave to the other (roll a Paralization saving throw once to see if people trip and get entangled in the webs as they proceed through the area). Such  an action will of course warn the Giant Man-eating spider of the presence of preys for her to feed on...

There is a hole in the webs over the SE corner of the chasm, as though some heavy weight had fallen through at torn the webs apart at this particular location, which leads to a little opening large enough for an unarmoured man to squeeze through on the side of the cliff bordering the abyss below. This passage leads to area (101), which was used some time ago by a fleeing prisoner to try to escape from this place, but he died there instead.

101 – Chimney up to the surface. After stretching from the edge of the chasm under area (100) in a general south-eastern direction for about 20-25 feet the passage mentioned above turn sharply upward, leading to a small ledge where a prisoner of the goals once found refuge to die there. Only his skeleton remains, along with bits and pieces of his original equipment. [Equipment carried]

Upwards beyond the ledge where the characters can find the skeleton the passage becomes incredibly tight. No normally constituted man could possibly squeeze any further.

102 – Lair of the Man-eating Spider. This area completely covered by webs to the point of looking like a giant tunnel, or funnel made out of webs. This is where the Man-eating spider can generally be found. This specimen is a beautiful, hairy arachnid of a general earthy, brownish colour that is reminiscent of the general appearance of the Goliath Bird-eating spider that can be found in the jungles of South America.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klHDzIIrsjY

Like its Earth equivalent, this specimen can kick her back legs to  project clouds of hair around her as a mean of protection. Treat her as a Giant Spider (MM 90) with the additional special ability to project 30' radius clouds of hair around her instead of biting. A saving throw against poison makes the effects of the cloud bearable (-2 on attack rolls nonetheless due to an immediate irritation of the eyes, nose and throat), whereas the alternative is crippling (severe irritation, crying, sneezing, coughing, -4 to attack rolls, half movement).

103 – The Spider's Eggs. This cavern is completely obstructed by thick spider webs. Hacking and slashing through, the party would find a large, 10-foot wide white bundle near its eastern wall. It is a bundle of spider eggs . Slashing the bundle open will release the eggs and trigger the premature hatching of a number of tiny hairy spiders, the offspring of the Man-eating spider at area (102) (20-120 hatching, treat as 1 HP, 1/2 HD critters doing one point of damage on a it, or as a group of little swarms 2-3 HD each, 1 HP representing a tiny spider within, attacking for 1-4 damage for each 6 HP it possesses). The skeleton of a man is glued to the webs behind the bundle (ripping it off would surely break the egg bundle apart): it carries 1-3 scrolls each inscribed with 1-3 spells of level 1-3 (determine randomly), 2-12 gems of 10 GP base value in a purse, and a strange, fist-sized pink crystal in the shape of a heart (the Good Heart of Zuun, see area 112 below).

104 – Muddy Cave. This area is perpetually wet. The mud here goes up to the waist and acts like a suction cup, making movement through it very difficult (MV reduced to a quarter speed). A number of undead are concealed by the mud. They will try to grab the legs of those who dare walk through, and will try to pull their victims down into the mud with them to suffocate (victims killed in such a fashion would be digested by the cursed muck and ultimately become skeletons themselves). Skeleton, MM 87. Consider this area a lair, with 3-30 present.

105 – Antechamber to the Harpies' Nest. Characters venturing there might be noticed by the Harpies at area (106) 2-in-6. The monsters will call the party in such an event (save versus magic, or approach them).

106 – The Harpies' Nest. This is the lair of a number of Harpies (MM 51, 2-12 present, AC 7, HD 3). They use the ventilation shafts at areas (107) and (108) to get in and out of the level. The nest is located on a rock protrusion hanging from the ceiling, right in the middle of this natural chamber. In the nest, 56 GP, 324 SP and a whopping 45,302 CP may be found. There is a potion of levitation (as per the spell) located there as well.

107, 108 – Ventilation Shafts. These vertical, natural ventilation shafts connect to the convoluted cave system above the level. This cave system eventually leads to the level 1b the Troglodyte fort and the surface beyond, and also connects with areas (112) and (14) on the level.

109 – The Grimlocks' Excavations. This area is where the excavations of the hobgoblins' grimlock slaves occur. There is a sinkhole right in the middle of this area leading down to mines where the grimlocks search for crystals necessary to the alchemist's experiments – see areas (58) and (59) for more information about Xaelaandder Bey the alchemist and his experiments. There is a 2-in-6 chance to meet a group of 1-10 Grimlocks and a leader (HD 3, AC 4) along with them come to or from the mines below. A small party of 1-4 hobgoblins might be there as well (referee's discretion). The mines form an isolated part of the waterworks sub-level below. All grimlocks actually hide valuable in their undies, or ... even more private places. For each individual roll d3. 1 = K Treasure (3-18 SP), 2 = L Treasure (2-12 EP), 3 M Treasure (2-8 GP). The leader will carry all three treasure types – same goes for the grimlocks at areas (110) and (111).

110 – The Grimlocks' Cave. The hobgoblins control 30 grimlock slaves who all live in this area and area (111) when they are not down the mines through the sinkhole at area (109). If no grimlocks were encountered at (109), there are 3-30 grimlocks along with 1-2 leaders present here. If grimlocks were met at (109), there are instead 2-20 grimlocks here and just one leader. The Champion of the Grimlock is present in this area 2-in-6. The grimlocks here as either worshipping the Hydra of area (112), fighting amongst themselves, playing cruel games, or eating scraps given to them by the hobgoblins.

111 – The Grimlocks' Lair. Those grimlocks who are not currently in the mines or present at area (110) will be here either resting or mating violently (not a pretty sight: These creatures are ugly, sadistic and worse than animals). 1-2 leaders are present here, depending on the number met at areas (109) and/or (110) previously (the grimlocks have a total of 3 leaders). Their Champion is present here 2-in-6. Treasure in lair:

112 – Levitating Stone Face and Hydra. This area is the bottom of a huge cylindrical shaft running all the way up to a cave system which ultimately emerges in level (1b Troglodyte Fort) and the surface beyond. The ventilation shafts of areas (107) and (108) connects with this large natural chimney, as well as the tunnels up the cracks in the dome of area (14).



The bottom of this shaft is entirely flooded but for a roughly 30 feet by 40 feet natural rock protrusion. A large block of rectangular stone levitates over it. A gigantic face has been carved on one of its sides, and under it, a hole where its heart ought to be.

The face in the block of stone is ancient, and may be awakened. It has been built by the Ancients of Mu, and was placed here aeons ago by the Sorcerer Kings who created this advanced location and the Troglodyte Fort above (level 1b). Placing one of the Hearts of Zuun with bring the face back to conscience. Its alignment will depend on which heart is placed in the socket, and its goals will vary accordingly, from giving the players information about the Sorcerer Kings, their experiments, the search for the magics of the Builders that preceded them, even parts of maps to different locations in the dungeon (Good Heart from area 103), to wanting to break free from this place, potentially charging the party with this quest which could potentially lead them to different locations in the dungeon (Neutral Heart from area 116), or just manipulating them so that it can take over the whole complex, as a sort of evil patron or semi-deity (Evil Heart from this area). If the face feels Magic Users around it (by the pool of water around the rock protrusion, for instance), it might push its conscience to make its heart socket throb and shine with an obviously magical aura.

A five-headed hydra (MM 53, HD 5, AC 5) lairs in the waters around. It is worshipped by the grimlocks, who seldom approach it, but for their Champion, who is the representative of the Hydra amongst them, and may be here imagining itself entertaining some form of dialog with the monster (the Hydra is semi-intelligent and just leaves the Champion alone because he brings it food in the form of the various sacrifices performed by the grimlocks for their multi-headed “god”).

The Champion (HD 4, HP 27, AC 3) is present here 2-in-6. He carries with him the ruby-coloured, fist-sized shard of crystal known as the Evil Heart of Zuun (which he recuperated from the depths of the waters around the levitating block of stone),  has a potion of water-breathing, and 3 gems of a base 50 GP value each.

The Hydra's treasure hoard is located deep underwater. It contains thousands of pieces of copper and silver, a few hundred pieces of gold and electrum, 1-8 gems of a base 100 GP value, 1-4 pieces of jewelry and a full suit of magical armor +1 that used to belong to one of the Sorcerer Kings.

113 – The Hobgoblins' Lair. There is always at least 10 hobgoblins in this room. 2-in-6 chance to meet 1-6 more and a sergeant with two assistants (HP 9, see Hobgoblin in MM 53). Determine individual treasure randomly (types J and M).

114 – The Hobgoblins' Cave. The hobgoblins' common area. 2-12 individual present, plus 2-12 of the Chief's bodyguards. They might be in the process of roasting one of the bandits who insulted Oldebert the First of area (47), or just about to start. A fight might already have broken out to determine who will get the first cut once the man is well done.

115 – Chamber of the Hobgoblin Chieftain. This area is the hobgoblin Chieftain's domain (AC 2, 22 HP, 1d10+1 damage, fights like a 4 HD monster). Those amongst his 15 bodyguards who are not at area (114) will be present here. They will each have personal wealth (J and M). The leader will carry 2-8 gems of a base 50 GP value, 1-4 gems of a base 100 GP value, 1-3 gems of a base 500 GP value, and one gem of a base 1,000 GP value. Note the boulders separating the hobgoblins' areas from the caves of the grimlocks at area (110) and beyond can be removed by a number of humanoids going at it for one full exploration turn, something the hobgoblins do twice a day to lead the grimlocks down to the mines and back.

116 – The Hobgoblins' Loot. The hobgoblins' stash is located here. Roll randomly for a treasure hoard type D from the MM. It also contains the Neutral Heart of Zuun in a locked chest with a poison needle trap.

117 – Prismatic room. See area (30) for more information.

Key Complete.

Next time: We are going to finish the discussion of this sample level with a wandering monster table, the discussion of the group dynamics and possible evolutions of the level throughout the campaign, as well as a set of possible objectives and adventure hooks that could get a party of adventurers involved here.



The levitating stone face of area (112).

Back to Map Key, Part 1.

Link to all the posts in the series in my sig.

Q: How big do I make the dungeon?

The short answer for me is "however big you want it to be". I don't define my campaign with a specific set of "protagonists." I don't construe my games as stories in the making. To quote E. Gary Gygax, "The adventure is the thing, not 'a story.' If you want stories, go read a book, If you want derring-do, play a real RPG and then tell the story of the adventure you barely survived afterwards. The tale is one determined by the players' characters' actions, surely!"

The fantasy games' milieu(s) exist(s) independently from a specific set of characters or party. The dungeon is a place that exists in the wilderness, and whoever wants to explore it can. The general expectation isn't to clean up entire levels to get to the bottom of the dungeon and "win the campaign", it's to explore what you can, one expedition at a time, probably investigating this set of stairs down or that strange idol you spotted the last time you were down there, to act on a bit of research you did when you were back in town, and so on. It's basically the Player's Handbook p.107+ (section "successful adventures"): the players' characters drive the game, set their objectives, and attempt to fulfill them during the expedition. Things can go awry or get badly sidetracked in the process, of course. Different players will have different characters and parties they belong to. Over time, the veteran players will create secondary characters to adventure with the newbies. Players will upgrade their henchmen to PC status, their hirelings to henchmen, and so on.

What I basically try to explain is that my campaign milieu is a live place, not a stage for a somewhat linear story line to take place.

From there, the expectation that the dungeon should be "as big as a specific set of players would care to explore" doesn't enter into my picture. I'm fine if the players decide to completely ignore the dungeon to venture in the wilderness for some time, or decide to make this or that town the center of their characters' activities in the world.

So the dungeon really can be as big as I want. If the party feels interested in this or that bit and keeps digging, cool, I'm ready for that. If the party wants to move on and do something else for a while, I'm cool with that too. As far as keeping the attention of the players focused on the dungeon, I find that if the dungeon is this sort of nexus of adventure and mystery in the immediate wilderness region around the PCs, if the each level is interesting in its own right, and each particular zone is made of interesting areas and cool dynamics, it's enough to get most players going for months and months of gaming back and forth, to and from the dungeon.

It's cool if you are running dungeons with a particular set of characters and have an expectation to "finish it through" with a kind of storyline progression or whatnot. I understand that can be fun too. It may depend on the time, commitments, however you enjoy the process of creating the environment in the first place, and so on, as well. It's just different strokes for different folks.

Remains the question which I think is just as important, if not more, actually:

Q: How small can the dungeon be?

I think the answer to that is in OD&D volume 3, The Underworld and Wilderness Adventures: "In beginning a dungeon it is advisable to construct at least three levels at once, noting where the stairs, trap doors (and chimneys) and slanting passages come out on lower levels, as well as the mouths of chutes and teleportation terminals."

Even though "a good dungeon will have no less than a dozen levels down, with offshot levels in addition," as it precises thereafter, I think we see in this quote the basic logic that sustains the creation of the gaming environment: it should be big enough to allow for a wide variety of exploration routes. It should involve many ways in which the game can unfold, in other words, so that the actual choices of the players, whether they decide to go left or right, up or down, actually matter and result in different game plays thereof. If no matter what you do the session ends up unfolding the same way, albeit with "encounter sequences" shuffled in a different order, then something's amiss. There should be more dynamism than that in the dungeon, because the players' agency in choosing where they go, what they do and how is ALL THEY HAVE. It's the reason why they play the dungeon exploration game in the first place.

So surely, one doesn't have to take this advice literally as "three levels or nothing". You could have one gigantic level with a dozen different entrances from the surface instead of three with chutes, stairs and slanting passages in between: Greg Gillespie's Barrowmaze comes to mind, on that score. But the essence is there: give the players' agency in the way they explore the place, make sure that different paths of exploration result in different game plays, and make it all interesting, intertwined, organic, and non-linear. The rest follows from there.

How ultimately small can a dungeon be? As small as it can without sacrificing exploration agency.

Benoist,

Just a heads up-

I posted links to two other forums for this great resource you've created. I said I would do this-then just plain forgot.

Great stuff!

Palladium Books: http://palladium-megaverse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=143125

Kenzer & Co.: http://www.kenzerco.com/forums/showthread.php?62513-Advice-for-Building-a-Megadungeon-Great-Resource-Hackmaster&p=1252373#post1252373

Hope you are well-;)

So glad this got bumped! I just spent my afternoon reading it instead of correcting exam papers and consider it time well spent. It truly is inspiring stuff and make me hanker after designing a mega-dungeon of my own. Hell, just with the bandit level posted here I could a game for several sessions. Your process for coming up with the history of the dungeon really got me thinking about the possibilities for this kind of gaming where a huge underground complex actually makes detailed in-world sense. Huge hat-tip to you Benoist, this is a magical resource.

Quote from: J.L. Duncan;744565Benoist,

Just a heads up-

I posted links to two other forums for this great resource you've created. I said I would do this-then just plain forgot.

Great stuff!

Palladium Books: http://palladium-megaverse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=143125

Very well, thank you! I'm glad you appreciated and spread the word about it.

Very cool! I'll keep an eye on those threads.

Kenzer & Co.: http://www.kenzerco.com/forums/showthread.php?62513-Advice-for-Building-a-Megadungeon-Great-Resource-Hackmaster&p=1252373#post1252373

Hope you are well-;)

Thank you! I am well indeed! Very glad you appreciated the advice and spread the link about!

That is so very cool.

Quote from: markfitz;744679So glad this got bumped! I just spent my afternoon reading it instead of correcting exam papers and consider it time well spent. It truly is inspiring stuff and make me hanker after designing a mega-dungeon of my own. Hell, just with the bandit level posted here I could a game for several sessions. Your process for coming up with the history of the dungeon really got me thinking about the possibilities for this kind of gaming where a huge underground complex actually makes detailed in-world sense. Huge hat-tip to you Benoist, this is a magical resource.

Thank you very much, Mark! Just a heads up here that this bandit level actually got reworked later on and integrated into the Hobby Shop Dungeon world with Ernest Gary Gygax, Jr. It's actually the level featured in our preview of the Haunted Halls of the Beggar King so if you'd like to get a sneak peek into the evolution of the whole thing, get the color map and see what it became in our campaign, please, click on the link, check it out and spread the word about it!

Thanks again guys. Your enthusiasm is deeply appreciated. This resource here will remain free for all to see, by the way. I fully intend to go on and finish it at some point.

OK, so my first query would be, why build a megadungeon? It's a throwback genre based on ancient tabletop boardgame-style experiences. It's almost impossible to generate a plausible sense of place, and you narrow your 'roleplaying' experience to a series of slaughterfests interrupted by puzzles like traps and secret doors. You say yourself you have a group of 30-somethings, who have some experience of gaming - why not design a setting which permits roleplaying with social interaction, moral complexity and meaningful choices, investigation (which is not mapping a dungeon, btw) and above all plausibility and perhaps something like alternative historical realism.

But, assuming you want a big dungeon experience and you never tire of traps, corridors and (almost always) melee combat, let me respond to some of your queries in the original post.

1) "Also, since I don't know shit about archeology, how the fuck do things like entire cities get buried over time? And how would it possible to explore them without, you know, shoveling all the dirt away first?" They never do. You would have to dig away all the dirt. And where there are ruins only partly buried, they sure as heck aren't teeming with life.

2) Ask youself how the inhabitants do the following things:
i) breathe. You put in a couple of vent holes, I see. But nowhere near enough to supply oxygen through the whole map on all levels. So how do the creatures exist without air? How do they cook their food? Fire can't burn down there. And there are no chimneys to vent the smoke.
ii) eat. How do they eat? You've got a whole nest of spiders in one corner there. Spiders eat flies and other insects. There's literally no food down there for regular sized spiders; how do giant spiders thrive? Same with the hobgoblins and other humanoids. Do they get deliveries?
iii) get out to raid. How do they go places? Or do they just sit in their rooms waiting for adventurers to come by and kill them? The journey to the surface seems to be miles and miles through nests of other monsters and evil humanoids. There are traps everywhere. Is their existence confined to a few rooms in their designated corner of this level? How weird for them.
iv) trade. Why would they have 'treasure' especially treasure in locked strongboxes (built from the wood hewn from the dungeon trees, no doubt). What kind of economy can there be in hobgoblin world? How do they leearn stuff? Are there kids? Are they evil too?

The best answer megadungeon builders usually muster for all this stuff is 'ancient wizards made this place like it' and so there must be magical air vents, magical food supplies, magical clothing, axe making, maybe TV to keep the intelligent races from going nuts in their tiny suite of rooms.

Are all the critters evil? Is their response always ' you have entered my lair, now we will kill you'? Do they have any aims in life, any goals, any culture? Or are they two dimensional enemies defines by their HP and AC only?

After a few hours in a zone this artificial rolling to kill things and using 10 foot poles to test for traps in the anti-corridors (designed mainly to prevent passage, not to facilitate it) - do you and your players not scratch your heads and think - isn't there more to roleplaying than this??

If you want to make an underground space, I would suggest as adult roleplayers you address the issues I raise above - make the space a living, breathing place which houses creatures in plausible ecosystems and with working cultures. Allow a range of ways to engage with the intelligent races. You have a smart group of adults in a room - you admire creativity and intelligence - aim higher?