Alright. I've talked at length about the way one of the major things that bug me with 4E is the way powers are structured, particularly Encounter and Daily powers, and how then this structure is explained in game-world terms. It just doesn't make much sense to me.

I thought that one could houserule that the first use of an Encounter or Daily power in a given encounter or day respectively would work exactly as the rules imply, but then, a character could choose to use the same Power again in the same encounter/day, but with some serious drawbacks coming along with it.

This would solve the problem of Encounter/Daily powers not being "reusable" somehow, and also provide more choices to the players (do I *really* need to reuse this particular spell, even it that means I shatter my brains in the process?)

I see two ways of going about it: either you have a general drawback that takes place according to the power source, or you have specific drawbacks for each and every single power. I'd like to explore the former option a bit further here because well, that's the simplest option, and it also makes sense to me in game-world terms.

For instance, after using a martial Encounter power a second time during a given encounter, a character could become dazzed for a round, with the reasons varying according to the power source: either the character has overperformed (martial), been transfixed by the power of the divine washing over him (divine), or has his brains overloading with arcane power (arcane).

For Dailies, maybe the character could make a saving throw to avoid falling Unconscious, and in case of success, would be Dazzed as an ongoing effect until a saving throw is succeeded?

Would this be alright, or is it too harsh/not enough? What do you guys think?

Might be a good option - I agree that martial dailies don't seem to make much sense. Maybe reduce the effectiveness of the second use to simulate "fatigue" if you don't want to change states, but I think your idea might work just fine.

So the drawbacks don't seem to be too wimpy or too harsh for you, right? I'm having a hard time understanding how harsh particular conditions are in game play at this point, given that I only played 4E online so far.

Why don't you bring this up in the 4e re-design/clone thread?  

Quote from: StormBringer;402927Why don't you bring this up in the 4e re-design/clone thread?  

Because I didn't think about it?

I wouldn't go with "unconscious" but I can certialy see applying a condition to them for a round or two. I'd go with dazed for casters and weakened for martials, maybe make it a saving-throw situation to pull out of the condition.

Quote from: Werekoala;402936I wouldn't go with "unconscious" but I can certialy see applying a condition to them for a round or two. I'd go with dazed for casters and weakened for martials, maybe make it a saving-throw situation to pull out of the condition.

In general, I think concept of 'save ends' is moderately OK, it's the swinginess of the duration that kind of hits my inner game designer wrong.  However, I think it would work really well in this case.  

If 'save ends' is too unpredictable,  another option would be to make the status last for the encounter, but allow using an action point or a healing surge to end it.  Burning a healing surge just to clear the condition might be a tad expensive on its own, so perhaps clearing the condition along with the normal hit point restoration would be reasonable.  Since the status is self-inflicted anyway, this seems like a fairly good trade-off, and opens up some interesting choices for the players; burn a surge to get rid of the effect when hit points aren't very low, suffer the effect until hit points are low enough to use a surge anyway, suck it up until the encounter ends, and so on.  This would become a fairly urgent decision towards the end of the day when surges are running low.

I like that - using a surge to void a condition (any time, now that I think of it, not just after a "daily double" - hee!) really helps reinforce the "second wind" that they represent, more than healing actual damage.

Hm, we might have improved the game a bit here.

Quote from: StormBringer;402941In general, I think concept of 'save ends' is moderately OK, it's the swinginess of the duration that kind of hits my inner game designer wrong.  However, I think it would work really well in this case.

Especially since in this case, it's the player himself who basically decides whether he wants to take on the "swinginess" of the condition or not, whether it's worth it for the situation at hand, or rather worth using some other power to achieve what he wants to do, or something else completely.

Quote from: StormBringer;402941If 'save ends' is too unpredictable,  another option would be to make the status last for the encounter, but allow using an action point or a healing surge to end it.  Burning a healing surge just to clear the condition might be a tad expensive on its own, so perhaps clearing the condition along with the normal hit point restoration would be reasonable.  Since the status is self-inflicted anyway, this seems like a fairly good trade-off, and opens up some interesting choices for the players; burn a surge to get rid of the effect when hit points aren't very low, suffer the effect until hit points are low enough to use a surge anyway, suck it up until the encounter ends, and so on.  This would become a fairly urgent decision towards the end of the day when surges are running low.

So where does that leave us?

I'd be inclined to say for Encounter powers, after the first use, you can use the power again, but afterwards you immediately are subjected to the dazed condition, save ends. You may spend a healing surge at any point after the first round being dazed to alternately end the condition.

For Daily powers, it'd need to be harsher. Falling helpless maybe (exhausted, awed by the gods' might, insane, etc), with the condition lasting until you spend a healing surge, after which you can make a save every round to potentially get back in the fight? Dailies are a big deal, after all.

Quote from: Werekoala;402944I like that - using a surge to void a condition (any time, now that I think of it, not just after a "daily double" - hee!) really helps reinforce the "second wind" that they represent, more than healing actual damage.

Hm, we might have improved the game a bit here.

Ok, well, someone needs to post this over in the other thread, then.  

Quote from: Benoist;402946Especially since in this case, it's the player himself who basically decides whether he wants to take on the "swinginess" of the condition or not, whether it's worth it for the situation at hand, or rather worth using some other power to achieve what he wants to do, or something else completely.

Exactly.  It's under normal 'save ends' conditions that I am less enthusiastic about the mechanic.  A player could blow their big Daily or whatever, only to have the opponent recover the next round, or a series of really shitty dice rolls could have a player out for five rounds, six rounds, or possibly more.  That is a good half hour of missing your saves.

QuoteI'd be inclined to say for Encounter powers, after the first use, you can use the power again, but afterwards you immediately are subjected to the dazzled condition, save ends. You may spend a healing surge at any point after the first round being dazzled to alternately end the condition.

Dazed is a good condition for encounter powers, perhaps until the end of the character's next turn, then start saving or using a surge.  Without the condition of attacking a specific target, Marked is pretty good also, -2 to attack rolls.

QuoteFor Daily powers, it'd need to be harsher. Falling helpless maybe (exhausted, awed by the gods' might, insane, etc), with the condition lasting until you spend a healing surge, after which you can make a save every round to potentially get back in the fight? Dailies are a big deal, after all.

Dailies are supposed to be a big deal, but the damage is not great, considering the monsters, although the conditions they impose helps make up for some of it.

How about for Daily powers, the character is Stunned with save ends, but if/when they do, they are still Dazed, like Encounter powers?  Or Surprised, that has some nice penalties too, and it a bit steep for Encounter powers.  They can remove the status like they would for Encounter powers, with a healing surge, but only when they are Dazed/Surprised, not when they are Stunned (even though Stunned already prevents taking any actions)

Notice how you're allowed to use a healing surge in both cases after the first round during which you've been either Dazzled or Unconscious? Now, I'd amend this by adding "any additional use of said power adds one round of mandatory Daze or Unconsciousness before you can effectively end the effect (either with a save or expenditure of healing surges, as the specific power warrants)".

Quote from: Benoist;402955Notice how you're allowed to use a healing surge in both cases after the first round during which you've been either Dazzled or Unconscious? Now, I'd amend this by adding "any additional use of said power adds one round of mandatory Dazzle or Unconsciousness before you can effectively end the effect (either with a save or expenditure of healing surges, as the specific power warrants)".

Additional uses for the day, or for that encounter?

Quote from: StormBringer;402953How about for Daily powers, the character is Stunned with save ends, but if/when they do, they are still Dazed, like Encounter powers?  Or Surprised, that has some nice penalties too, and it a bit steep for Encounter powers.  They can remove the status like they would for Encounter powers, with a healing surge, but only when they are Dazed/Surprised, not when they are Stunned (even though Stunned already prevents taking any actions)

Having a parallel between Encounter and Dailies would be best IMO. It makes things logically simpler because they are similar.

So in one case Encounter powers, we'd have a dazed condition for one round at least, after which save ends, unless you spend a healing surge to end the condition on the spot (the first round of daze still being mandatory).

In the other case, Daily powers, we'd have a helpless condition for one round at least, after which save ends, or you spend a healing surge, after which you are dazed with save ends.

Any additional uses of either Encounter or Daily powers adds one round to the mandatory period during which you are subjected to a condition before you can save or spend a healing surge to overcome it (third expenditure of the same daily would mean you are helpless for two rounds mandatory before you could save or spend a healing surge to become dazed/save ends instead, for instance).

Quote from: StormBringer;402957Additional uses for the day, or for that encounter?

See my previous post. The example should clarify what I meant.