Quote from: droogWell, crazy people are crazy. Besides that, as I understand it there's considerable controversy over the extent, nature, and very existence of multiple personality disorders.

Of course there is.  There are also people who claim it's natural and there is nothing wrong with it.  Of course there is considerable controversy over what the mind is and whether free will exists, too.  It's not that difficult to argue that a person's normal personality is just an illusion.  How far do you really want to go with this?

Quote from: droogYou're making a very tall claim here. At best, it would seem that if MPD exists, it's connected to severe trauma. You're saying you can invoke that. I think it's reasonable to express scepticism.

I'm not saying that I can invoke MPD.  I'm not saying that I have MPD.  My characters don't take me over.  I'm claiming that those disorders show that the human mind has the capacity to contain more than one personality and consciousness.

If it were just me reporting this, I think you'd have plenty of reason to express skepticism.  But it's not just me.  It's plenty of other role-players, too, that often don't have a lot else in common.  At that point, you can believe we are all delusional, all liars, or maybe there is something to what we experience.  Whatever floats your boat.

QuoteI'm claiming that those disorders show that the human mind has the capacity to contain more than one personality and consciousness.

Petitio principii. We must accept that as a fact before we accept that a sane person even has such a capacity. If I hold that off until being convinced, I must hold your claim off too.

I don't see a lot of roleplayers claiming their experiences are akin to multiple personality disorders, that they somehow access an entirely separate personality. I remain sceptical.

Quote from: droogPetitio principii. We must accept that as a fact before we accept that a sane person even has such a capacity. If I hold that off until being convinced, I must hold your claim off too.

Correct.

Quote from: droogI don't see a lot of roleplayers claiming their experiences are akin to multiple personality disorders, that they somehow access an entirely separate personality. I remain sceptical.

Well, most people don't want to associate what they do with a mental illness because they don't want people to assume they are insane.  My claim is not that immersive role-playing is the same thing.  My claim is that it shows that the claims of immersive role-players are possible.

There are certainly plenty of claims of accessing an separate and distinct personality if you read enough discussions of immersive role-playing, including what some Finish LARPers do (which goes way beyond what I do).

Is the other personality entirely separate?  As I've said elsewhere in this discussion, I'm not sure it is.  I'm sure it borrows plenty of things from me because it simply because it doesn't have a full-featured existence (e.g., I don't play my characters through childhood).  I'm also sure that it shares some of the same capabilities and constraints that I do because it's running on the same hardware. I also don't claim it's as extensive or well developed as my real personality for the same reason.  What I do claim it's separate and distinct and that it has it's own train of thought, it's own emotional responses, it's own interpretations of what's going on, and it's own perspective .

Quote from: droogPetitio principii. We must accept that as a fact before we accept that a sane person even has such a capacity. If I hold that off until being convinced, I must hold your claim off too.

I don't see a lot of roleplayers claiming their experiences are akin to multiple personality disorders, that they somehow access an entirely separate personality. I remain sceptical.

Does it really matter if an immersive role-player really is accessing another personality inside their head or if they only think they do?  What's the point of the distinction outside of philosophy?

Quote from: jhkimDoes it really matter if an immersive role-player really is accessing another personality inside their head or if they only think they do?  What's the point of the distinction outside of philosophy?

Seems to have consequences for the way John frames his arguments. If he only thinks he's doing it, it loses a certain mystique.

Anyway, I like philosophy.

Quote from: jhkimDoes it really matter if an immersive role-player really is accessing another personality inside their head or if they only think they do?  What's the point of the distinction outside of philosophy?

If he only thinks he's doing it then there is the potential to combine his type of fun with meta-game information, possibly creating a better synthesis.  If, however, part of his fun hinges on keeping the secondary persona firewalled then he cannot mix metagame information with that, by any technique, and there's no point in trying.

At least I think that's the main practical consequence.

Quote from: droogSeems to have consequences for the way John frames his arguments. If he only thinks he's doing it, it loses a certain mystique.

So what difference does that make?

Quote from: TonyLB

Quote from: jhkimDoes it really matter if an immersive role-player really is accessing another personality inside their head or if they only think they do? What's the point of the distinction outside of philosophy?

If he only thinks he's doing it then there is the potential to combine his type of fun with meta-game information, possibly creating a better synthesis.  If, however, part of his fun hinges on keeping the secondary persona firewalled then he cannot mix metagame information with that, by any technique, and there's no point in trying.

At least I think that's the main practical consequence.

Seems to me that part of his fun could hinge on either keeping the secondary persona firewalled or simply thinking that there is a secondary persona firewalled.  

I'm an experimentalist -- I'd say have him try it and see if he enjoys it.  If he doesn't enjoy it, then I'd say go back to the drawing board.

Quote from: TonyLBIf he only thinks he's doing it then there is the potential to combine his type of fun with meta-game information, possibly creating a better synthesis.

Why did it seem like you were more frustrated than enlightened by my attempts to probe your holistic decision-making process based on the assumption that maybe you only think it's a holistic process but you are really combining more narrow decisions?  

No matter how many analogies and assurances you give me, I can never be 100% sure that your aren't just fooling yourself.  Maybe your holistic process is just an illusion.  But would it really change anything for you if it were?  Would entertaining that possibility bring you any closer to peering inside of your holistic process at individual decisions made from different perspectives that may or may not even be there?  

What makes you think that entertaining the possibility that what I'm doing is just an illusion will bring me any closer to just inserting meta-game information into what I'm doing if I don't perceive myself as deciding what my character does?

Quote from: TonyLBIf, however, part of his fun hinges on keeping the secondary persona firewalled then he cannot mix metagame information with that, by any technique, and there's no point in trying.

At least I think that's the main practical consequence.

That's a false dilemma.   There is a third option.  Figure out how to manipulate the firewalled persona on the basis of meta-game information.  That's pretty much what I've done with some success.  It may not be as easy or extensive as what you do, but it can and does work for me.

Quote from: jhkimSeems to me that part of his fun could hinge on either keeping the secondary persona firewalled or simply thinking that there is a secondary persona firewalled.

The experience of being another person in an imaginary world is pretty central to what I enjoy about role-playing.  And I'd say that if I had to sacrifice the illusion to work around it, I'd probably be sacrificing much of why I role-play.

Quote from: jhkimI'm an experimentalist -- I'd say have him try it and see if he enjoys it.  If he doesn't enjoy it, then I'd say go back to the drawing board.

What makes people (not necessarily you) think I haven't experimented with how I play?  If I didn't experiment, I wouldn't be able to make the meta-game adjustments that I do make.

The problem is what am I supposed to try?  Am I supposed to introduce meta-game thinking into my process of making decisions for my character?  I don't perceive myself making decisions for my character.  So how do I insert meta-game concerns into a process I can't find?  If I'm doing it, it's subconscious.  

If I could sense myself deciding what my character does (what some people are claiming I'm really doing behind the illusion), I would already know how to use meta-game information to influence the decision.  But I don't have that place to plug it in.  If I try to plug it into the interface I do have, thinking in character (even if it's only an illusion), it doesn't work and breaks what I do.  

It's like trying to find an outlet for a three pronged 110 volt appliance in a two-pronged 220 volt house.  Even if I figure out how to wire the appliance into a 220 volt outlet, it's going to burn out because it's not designed for that voltage.  Maybe there is a 110 volt grounded outlet hiding in the house somewhere or buried behind some drywall but I don't know where it is, or even if it exists and I'm not sure it's worth tearing the house down to look for it.  The solution, if it's going to work at all, is to find an adapter and put it between the appliance and the outlet to allow them to work together.  The other solution is to move into a 110 volt house but then all my 220 volt appliances aren't going to work right.

Quote from: John MorrowSo what difference does that make?

"I'm accessing separate personalities."
VS
"I'm delusional."

Quote from: John MorrowWhy did it seem like you were more frustrated than enlightened by my attempts to probe your holistic decision-making process based on the assumption that maybe you only think it's a holistic process but you are really combining more narrow decisions?

John, I think you're misreading my posting tone here.

I'm not trying to say "Oh, if only he realized that he was like us then he would recognize that the solutions that we apply to our problems will also work for his problems ... and we could all hug puppies together!"

I totally buy that your mental process in gaming is qualitatively different from mine.  You are doing something I wouldn't even know how to attempt.  And as a result of that, some techniques (especially those consciously mixing metagame information into the character decision process) that work for me will not and can not work for you.

John Kim asked why it was important whether you think a different way:  That was my answer to him.  I was trying to help, so please don't take it as an attack.  Accept my assurances that, at worst, it was well-intentioned clumsiness, for which I apologize.

Quote from: jhkimSeems to me that part of his fun could hinge on either keeping the secondary persona firewalled or simply thinking that there is a secondary persona firewalled.

Yes, and it also could actually hinge upon what he ate for breakfast.  But he tells me that it hinges upon keeping the secondary persona actually firewalled, and since he's the one with the best possible knowledge of the situation, I'm going to do my best to accept that, even though it is very different from what I'm familiar with.

Quote from: droog"I'm accessing separate personalities."
VS
"I'm delusional."

If it makes you happier to think of me as delusional, knock yourself out.  There are plenty of other people with the same delusion, then.

Quote from: John MorrowThere are plenty of other people with the same delusion, then.

There are plenty of people who believe in Scientology, too.