I'm building a game right now that only uses d6s and d20s, and I'm considering dropping the d20 rolls and replacing them with rolling multiple d6s.

The main goals of my game mechanically are minimizing set up, and getting rid of lag in combat. I'm trying to jam as much nuance and complexity in as I can without sacrificing speed.

The game is targeted at groups who want to jump right into the game. GMs who want to make things up as they go, and players who don't want to read a lot until they are invested in the game/their characters, and learn to play while playing.

The ideal is for it to start off very simply, and introduce more complexity once its got its hooks in you to keep you engaged.

So my question is, are d20s the way to go given who I'm targeting? I feel like they are more elegant than dice pools, but if they keep people from wanting to try the game, then I think a little more dicey math will be worth it.

With the Internet allowing for ease of purchase of almost anything around in the Western world, I'd say that using different dice isn't really a problem. I can't imagine a single occasion in my life I'd go "Oh dear, I wish the game designers'd suggest rolling 3d6 instead of D20 here", outside of weapon damage sheets.

Quote from: Rincewind1;687517With the Internet allowing for ease of purchase of almost anything around in the Western world, I'd say that using different dice isn't really a problem. I can't imagine a single occasion in my life I'd go "Oh dear, I wish the game designers'd suggest rolling 3d6 instead of D20 here", outside of weapon damage sheets.

They're easy to purchase, but then you have to wait for shipping; so they're not fast, you can't play NOW NOW NOW (Smartphone die rollers exist, though, natch). Everybody can find D6's, they're sold almost everywhere, and almost everyone is likely to have some.

You just can't beat d6's or a deck of playing cards for accessibility.

Quote from: Ladybird;687534They're easy to purchase, but then you have to wait for shipping; so they're not fast, you can't play NOW NOW NOW (Smartphone die rollers exist, though, natch). Everybody can find D6's, they're sold almost everywhere, and almost everyone is likely to have some.

You just can't beat d6's or a deck of playing cards for accessibility.

Most big cities have some sort of a gaming/book store where you will be able to pick up an RPG and dice. If you live in a place that does not have such a place, like some....village, how did you learn about RPGs in  the first place? If from the Internet, well, click one spot more and buy yourself some dice alongside that book. If from a friend/parent, the chances are rather high they have the dice as well. And if you really must play that new RPG in timespace between 1 - 3 days it'd take a courier/postal service to deliver you your dice (assuming you did not spend those days actually, well, reading the RPG book), you can use pieces of paper with numbers on them for random generation, or computer/cell phones numbers generators.

First RPG ever used D20s, and that was back in the age of mail order catalogues. Unless you are designing an RPG for African/Asian market, I don't really see the point to complicate the mechanics for the sake of less variety of dice being used.

Alright, you've sold me rincewind. I was coming at it form Ladybird's perspective, but you're right. If you've got access to the book, you've probably got access to the dice.

Quote from: Rincewind1;687633Most big cities have some sort of a gaming/book store where you will be able to pick up an RPG and dice.

If you already know where the specialist store is, yeah. If not (Maybe you're in a "big" city that doesn't have one, or it isn't easily accessible or advertised, or you've bought your game from a regular bookshop), they're more faff to obtain.

And if the book doesn't state somewhere on the cover or somewhere blindingly obvious for a browser that it needs the specialty dice, it's easy to walk out of the store without buying them.

QuoteIf you live in a place that does not have such a place, like some....village, how did you learn about RPGs in  the first place? If from the Internet, well, click one spot more and buy yourself some dice alongside that book.

If you've got a .PDF, or bought a hardcopy book from a physical book store, you could in theory start playing right away... if you don't have to wait for ordering speciality dice.

Oh yes, and you have to know what sort of dice you're looking for, and find one of the stores that sell them... now, they're not unusual to us, because we're already in the RPG market, we know where to go to get our stuff. To a new player... not so much. And games companies don't tend to put up links to suppliers of the peripheral stuff for our hobby.

QuoteIf from a friend/parent, the chances are rather high they have the dice as well. And if you really must play that new RPG in timespace between 1 - 3 days it'd take a courier/postal service to deliver you your dice (assuming you did not spend those days actually, well, reading the RPG book), you can use pieces of paper with numbers on them for random generation, or computer/cell phones numbers generators.

Remember the stipulation we were given; "The game is targeted at groups who want to jump right into the game.".

If you already know players, yeah! It's easy, they'll be able to lend you the stuff. But it's still specialty stuff.

QuoteFirst RPG ever used D20s, and that was back in the age of mail order catalogues.

And it supplied them in the box (Or equivalent randomiser). They were made accessible because the supplier gave them to you.

QuoteUnless you are designing an RPG for African/Asian market, I don't really see the point to complicate the mechanics for the sake of less variety of dice being used.

Using a d6 or cards doesn't necessarily complicate mechanics; it's not the randomiser you use that makes mechanics complex, it's the ways you use it.

And I'm unsold again. This is a really interesting argument, and I'm honestly torn guys.

EDIT:

What I have right now is the game working off a d20 by default, and special rules for people without d20s on how to use d6s everywhere it comes up. Are there pros and cons of this?

EDIT2: Actually, rereading those rules, they do a pretty crappy job of emulating the d20. The game would realistically have to be designed around one or the other. The important percentages that the dice have to be able to hit is 75% success and 30% success. I'll look into ways for the D6 to get at that.

Quote from: Doccit;687760EDIT2: Actually, rereading those rules, they do a pretty crappy job of emulating the d20. The game would realistically have to be designed around one or the other. The important percentages that the dice have to be able to hit is 75% success and 30% success. I'll look into ways for the D6 to get at that.

Yeah, the curves are completely different. For 3d6:

Value Chance / 216 Cumulative %age
3 1 1 0.46
4 3 4 1.85
5 6 10 4.63
6 10 20 9.26
7 15 35 16.20
8 21 56 25.93
9 25 81 37.50
10 27 108 50.00
11 27 135 62.50
12 25 160 74.07
13 21 181 83.80
14 15 196 90.74
15 10 206 95.37
16 6 212 98.15
17 3 215 99.54
18 1 216 100.00


%age here gives the chance of rolling a given number, or less. Your 75% point could either be 8 (Roll high) or 12 (Roll low), but there's nothing that really matches to anywhere near 30%.

I think you should pick one and stick to it. I'd go for 3d6, personally. There aren't really suitable numbers in 2d6 or 4d6, either.

I decided on 3d6. On an advantage (which my system has) it is 4d6 remove the lowest, and on a disadvantage, 4d6 remove the highest.

Quote from: Doccit;687513The game is targeted at groups who want to jump right into the game. GMs who want to make things up as they go, and players who don't want to read a lot until they are invested in the game/their characters, and learn to play while playing.

The ideal is for it to start off very simply, and introduce more complexity once its got its hooks in you to keep you engaged.

So my question is, are d20s the way to go given who I'm targeting? I feel like they are more elegant than dice pools, but if they keep people from wanting to try the game, then I think a little more dicey math will be worth it.

For what it's worth, I agree with Ladybird.  If your target goal is for newbies to jump right into play, d6s are better than d20s.  

Potentially there is some value to a game that requires more investment and time up-front before you can jump into play, but it sounds like you don't want that.  

A common case will be that a newbie mail-orders the game or downloads a PDF for a game.  They read the game, then realize that they have to order special parts to play it, and have to do an Internet search and place another order and wait around a week before they can play it.

Mhmm. I want to avoid that.

As for the value in the investment, do you just mean that more stuff on the character sheet leads to more interesting gameplay by virtue of having more moving parts to fool around with, or that spending a long time on a character sheet improves the player experience in another way?

If the second, I'd be interested to hear about why. I've definitely fallen in love with characters in games with long complicated sheets the moment I've made them, but I have with characters from short sheet games too.

Quote from: Doccit;688280Mhmm. I want to avoid that.

As for the value in the investment, do you just mean that more stuff on the character sheet leads to more interesting gameplay by virtue of having more moving parts to fool around with, or that spending a long time on a character sheet improves the player experience in another way?

I don't feel either is true. What's wrote on the sheet isn't the character, it's some numbers that describe them. The personality and outlook, the things you actually have to play the game to demonstrate and interact with, are the true character.

More time writing down numbers before play is more time that I'm not actually getting to play, and so not getting to develop the thing that actually matters.

Quote from: Ladybird;688310I don't feel either is true. What's wrote on the sheet isn't the character, it's some numbers that describe them. The personality and outlook, the things you actually have to play the game to demonstrate and interact with, are the true character.

More time writing down numbers before play is more time that I'm not actually getting to play, and so not getting to develop the thing that actually matters.

As a matter of design opinion, I agree - a game should be as simple and as easy to jump into as possible.  

However, as a matter of marketing psychology, I feel like I should mention the effect.  If a game is more difficult or expensive to get into, then there is a psychological effect of creating more feeling of investment in that game - regardless of the game's quality.  i.e. "I just worked for two hours on character creation for this RPG - we damn well better play it instead of switching to a boardgame."  

In marketing more broadly, sometimes if you raise the price of something, sales will increase and have people think that the product has greater quality.

Ah, I see. Barrier to entry creates investment.

I agree that a longer character sheet locks people in more, but if you can't get them to make one in the first place because of intimidation, you're screwed.

Also, I once almost ran a pathfinder campaign with a bunch of friends that broke down because we spent like two sessions making character sheets. They were busy university nerds, and it is a lot to ask for someone new to the game to make a char sheet without the GM around.

In my experience, the best way to get people invested in a campaign is to play it, and fumbling with character sheets keeps people form that.

Quote from: jhkim;688326As a matter of design opinion, I agree - a game should be as simple and as easy to jump into as possible.  

However, as a matter of marketing psychology, I feel like I should mention the effect.  If a game is more difficult or expensive to get into, then there is a psychological effect of creating more feeling of investment in that game - regardless of the game's quality.  i.e. "I just worked for two hours on character creation for this RPG - we damn well better play it instead of switching to a boardgame."  

In marketing more broadly, sometimes if you raise the price of something, sales will increase and have people think that the product has greater quality.

Conversely, from a gamer point of view, "Chargen only takes thirty minutes, so that's enough time in a session to do group chargen and then get to playing".

I suppose the ideal would be a game that could scale from "lite version" to "full version" simply - build a lite character, play, upgrade them after a few sessions - but that's clearly a design impossibility.